# Is "Fenian" a banned word in the U.K.? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 21, 2006, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fenian-a-banned-word-in-the-u-k/345503 "2006-02-21T18:30:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fenian-a-banned-word-in-the-u-k/345503/61 "2006-02-28T18:32:58Z")
> [@Celyn](#): > > Ah, I wonder if that’s it. > > Certainly I’ve heard the “left foot” thing, but have never understood it. Nor do I understand the “hun” one. Big mystery. Perhaps I should be thrown out of Glasgow. :eek: My manager is hardcore Glaswegian, so I will ask her tomorrow to explain the “hun” and “tim” business. ---
**Author:** ![infodisiac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/76d3ee/32.png) [@infodisiac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/infodisiac)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fenian-a-banned-word-in-the-u-k/345503/62 "2006-02-28T20:37:36Z")
Up north the other one is H = “aitch” or “haitch”. It seems protestants say the former, catholics the latter. Oh and on original topic here’s a song 'tWas down by the glenside I met an old woman A plucking young nettles She ne’er saw me coming I listened a while to the song she was humming Glory ho, glory ho to the bold Fenian man It’s fifty long years Since I saw the moon beaming On strong manly force Their eyes with hope gleaming I see them again through all my sad dreaming Glory ho, glory ho to the bold Fenian man Some died by the hillside Some died with a stranger And wise man have told us Their cause was a failure But they loved their old Ireland And they never fear danger Glory ho, glory ho to the bold Fenian man I passed on my way God be praised that I met her Be life long or short I will never forget her We may have brave men But we’ll never have better Glory ho, glory ho to the bold Fenian man 'tWas down by the glenside I met an old woman A plucking young nettles She ne’er saw me coming I listened a while to the song she was humming Glory ho, glory ho to the bold Fenian man ---
**Author:** ![Daithi\_Lacha](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daithi_lacha/32/5430_2.png) [@Daithi\_Lacha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daithi_Lacha)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fenian-a-banned-word-in-the-u-k/345503/63 "2006-02-28T20:50:45Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > There is an ersatz Irish pub in Jackson, Mississippi called Fenian’s. Popular place, too. That _might_ be based on a variation of the name “Finnian” like **Finnian’s Rainbow**. I’m just guessin’, though. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fenian-a-banned-word-in-the-u-k/345503/64 "2006-02-28T21:39:44Z")
> [@Daithi Lacha](#): > > That _might_ be based on a variation of the name “Finnian” like **Finnian’s Rainbow**. I’m just guessin’, though. There’s no question that Finnian and Fenian are variations on the same name and derived from Fianna. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that Finn probably also derives from Fianna. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fenian-a-banned-word-in-the-u-k/345503/65 "2006-02-28T21:45:34Z")
My Gaelgor missus says that “Finn” is an angicised spelling of “Fionn”, which means “fair haired” - nothing to do with Fianna. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fenian-a-banned-word-in-the-u-k/345503/66 "2006-02-28T21:49:46Z")
I sit corrected. So what does Fianna mean? Also, if Finn=Fion= Fair haired and Mac= Son of What does Cumhail (my spelling is likely wrong) mean? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fenian-a-banned-word-in-the-u-k/345503/67 "2006-02-28T22:17:24Z")
Er, I dunno. She’s refused to answer any more “annoying questions”. Irish women, don’t ya love 'em? 😉 [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fianna_F%C3%A1il) says Fianna Fáil means “Soldiers of Ireland, but traditionally translated as Soldiers of Destiny”. I am supposing fáil means destiny, since the Scots Gaelic lia fáil means “stone of destiny”? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fenian-a-banned-word-in-the-u-k/345503/68 "2006-02-28T22:37:17Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > Er, I dunno. She’s refused to answer any more “annoying questions”. I’d search the web for answers but most of my questions involve things I don’t know how to spell. Back in college, my class heard Micheal O’Siadhail read from his new book of poems. The information sheet said he was Irish, so I started trying to figure out how to properly pronounce his name. I was thinking ‘Mik-ull Oh-see-hall’. When the man introduced himself he said his name was ‘Mee-haul Oh-shool’. I was only able to find the proper spelling of his name because I remembered that the book was titled Hail Madam Jazz. Bringing this hi-jack back to the OP, a few of us noticed something else during O’Siadhail’s visit. One of our classmates, Neal, obviously wanted to comment and ask questions. There would be a twitch as his hand wanted to go up, and then he’d regain control and put both hands in his lap. This was not normal behavior for Neal. We all independently came to the same conclusion. It was because Neal was English. He was afraid that as soon as O’Siadhail heard his accent, there would be conflict. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fenian-a-banned-word-in-the-u-k/345503/69 "2006-03-01T09:40:13Z")
The original Fianna was the [Fianna Éireann](http://www.vincentpeters.nl/triskelle/history/fiannaeireann.php?index=060.015.030) of legend, founded by Fionn MacCumhail. Fianna means something like “band”, “soldiers”, “army” or “champions”. Since we’re talking about a word from about 300BC, it’s hard to know exactly what it meant! The Irish name Fiachra (it’s a boy’s name, pronounced Fear-cra) means “a raven” and has nothing to do with any of this, just in case someone gets confused by the spelling! ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fenian-a-banned-word-in-the-u-k/345503/70 "2006-03-01T09:56:01Z")
I assume “hun” perhaps comes from the fact that Germans were the original “protestants” against the Catholics? ---
**Author:** ![michaelF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@michaelF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/michaelF)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fenian-a-banned-word-in-the-u-k/345503/71 "2006-03-01T12:48:10Z")
> [@Dominic Mulligan](#): > > Rangers fans, **or Protestants in general** , are called huns. I’m not entirely sure, but I think it’s implying that they’re Anglo-Saxons, and not Celts, as Irish Catholics would be Maybe things are different where you are from, but I (from Glasgow) have never heard “hun” used to describe protestants in general, only ever used as a derisory term for Rangers fans. > [@e-logic](#): > > I assume “hun” perhaps comes from the fact that Germans were the original “protestants” against the Catholics? I dunno where hun comes from, but the word has connotations of barbaric, savage physical behaviour that Celtic fans traditionally accuse Rangers of displaying on the football pitch, as apposed to the fair, skillful play of their favourites. I have always thought “hun” meant brute, and has nothing to do with alledged ancestry. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2006, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fenian-a-banned-word-in-the-u-k/345503/72 "2006-06-20T05:18:56Z")
> [@e-logic](#): > > Several government agencies tried to ban sectarian terms in their Scottish offices… > > Quote: > GOVERNMENT staff have been threatened with the sack if they use sectarian words such as ‘Tim’, ‘left-footer’, ‘Hun’ and ‘proddy’. [QUOTE=dwalin] What the heck is ‘Tim’ about? Something about St. Timothy? [/QUOTE] Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I recently came across an answer to this question, so I thought I’d post it. It’s from the book _McCarthy’s Bar_ by Pete McCarthy, sort of a combined travelogue for Ireland and a search for the author’s Irish roots. In the following passage, he’s looking at a family tree that one of his uncles has put together: > [@](#): > > At the top of both branches of the tree are two men with the Christian name Tadhg, pronounced in English ‘Tague’. It translates as Tim. The name Patrick didn’t become widespread in Ireland until the 1800s; **so before the Irish were called Paddies, they were known as Tadhgs, or Tims, a pejorative term that survives to this day in parts of Ulster and Scotland.** ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fenian-a-banned-word-in-the-u-k/345503/73 "2006-06-21T08:18:30Z")
nitpick- The Irish name Tadhg is not pronounced “Tague”, it’s pronounced “TYgue” like the first syllable of “Tiger”, with a very hard “g”. The perjorative word that he’s thinking of is usually spelt “Taig” and pronounced as written. I have no idea if it comes from the name Tadhg or not. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Clam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3bc359/32.png) [@Happy\_Clam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Clam)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fenian-a-banned-word-in-the-u-k/345503/74 "2006-06-21T10:08:17Z")
Wow, this thread is really bringing the UK-and-Ireland voters out of the woodwork. For the record, if “Fenian” is illegal, I ought to have been arrested by now. Frequently (I study 19th c. history). ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2006, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fenian-a-banned-word-in-the-u-k/345503/75 "2006-06-21T15:33:33Z")
[QUOTE=irishgirl] nitpick- The Irish name Tadhg is not pronounced “Tague”, it’s pronounced “TYgue” like the first syllable of “Tiger”, with a very hard “g”. The perjorative word that he’s thinking of is usually spelt “Taig” and pronounced as written. I have no idea if it comes from the name Tadhg or not. [/QUOTE] [nitpick of the nitpick] Whatever the Irish pronunciation, it was most definitely pronounced in English as ‘Tague’ (to rhyme with ‘vague’), being usually spelt as ‘Teague’. The ‘Taig’ spelling is much more recent; the _OED_ dates that back only to the 1970s. [/nitpick of the nitpick] But the McCarthy theory is, in any case, highly doubtful. The _OED_ evidence on ‘Tim’ is entirely consistent with what one would suspect anyway, which is that the earliest references are all specifically Glaswegian. Moreover, it is recorded only from 1958. Given that ‘Teague’ and its variants were already considered archaic by the late nineteenth century (‘Taig’ being a later revival), it can hardly be considered obvious that there is any connection. That said, whether the more common explanation - that ‘Tim’ derives from a local Catholic gang leader, Tim Malloy - is any better is another matter and one on which the _OED_ remains silent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fenian-a-banned-word-in-the-u-k/345503.md?page=3)