# Is fighting tyranny a purpose of the 2nd Amendment and, if so, at what level of government? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 19, 2017, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fighting-tyranny-a-purpose-of-the-2nd-amendment-and-if-so-at-what-level-of-government/799295 "2017-10-19T16:00:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fighting-tyranny-a-purpose-of-the-2nd-amendment-and-if-so-at-what-level-of-government/799295/81 "2017-10-20T06:42:42Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I can’t figure out what your point is. Oh, sorry. Let me clarify: you said you were having trouble sussing out an argument here “that doesn’t contain an element of hero-fantasy that it’s _your_ .357 specifically that holds back the tide of oppression.” I guess I’m saying, in reply: instead of figuring it contains an element of “hero-fantasy”, could you suss out an argument built around just as easily thinking that someone else can easily fire shots? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fighting-tyranny-a-purpose-of-the-2nd-amendment-and-if-so-at-what-level-of-government/799295/82 "2017-10-20T13:29:49Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I would argue that the proper response to a tyrannical local government would be to appeal to the next higher level of government. If your town council is acting tyrannical, contact your governor. If your state government is acting tyrannical, contact Washington. It’s only when you get to the national level that you have nobody to appeal to and you have to resort to taking up arms. Fair point, but what if your local government is tyrannical and your state and federal governments are indifferent to your plight? ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fighting-tyranny-a-purpose-of-the-2nd-amendment-and-if-so-at-what-level-of-government/799295/83 "2017-10-20T14:15:45Z")
You don’t suppose there’s any reason why we never see mass shootings at gun shows? We’ve had wide-spread gun ownership in the United States for over 150 years now … what do we look like if guns had been outlawed from the beginning? I agree with **Chronos’** post #2 … the 2nd Amendment was intended to be a safeguard to protect liberties that has now proven to be unnecessary … we’re not the English and we don’t have a king prone to send our military off to protect the king’s own private lands in France … My papa made the observation that all these anti-war and race riots back in the late '60’s and early '70’s were usually confined to commercial neighborhoods … they didn’t dare spill over into the residential neighborhoods … ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fighting-tyranny-a-purpose-of-the-2nd-amendment-and-if-so-at-what-level-of-government/799295/84 "2017-10-20T14:19:20Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Fair point, but what if your local government is tyrannical and your state and federal governments are indifferent to your plight? It would depend on what you mean by “tyrannical” in this context. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fighting-tyranny-a-purpose-of-the-2nd-amendment-and-if-so-at-what-level-of-government/799295/85 "2017-10-20T14:34:33Z")
Perhaps everything that was happening in Maricopa County for the past couple of decades? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fighting-tyranny-a-purpose-of-the-2nd-amendment-and-if-so-at-what-level-of-government/799295/86 "2017-10-20T14:44:17Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Perhaps everything that was happening in Maricopa County for the past couple of decades? That’s a good point. How many here would have jumped on the bandwagon if liberals, Mexican-Americans and various other groups Sheriff Joe held in contempt(and/or in jail) over the years took up arms and violently overthrew his regime? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fighting-tyranny-a-purpose-of-the-2nd-amendment-and-if-so-at-what-level-of-government/799295/87 "2017-10-20T15:06:07Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Jesus Fucking Christ. Let it go already. Armed revolt isn’t legal, either. No intelligent person could possibly infer that I’m arguing to legalize IEDs. I said only that militias can resist regular armies. Quit fucking trying to put words in my mouth. I am not trying to put words in your mouth. You are the one that is claiming that militias can resist regular armies. We have two types of militia here. The type that is authorized by the second amendment, and the type that is in those countries that you mentioned. The first, the type authorized by the second amendment, cannot resist a regular army, they can barely be an annoyance to a regular army. The second, the type that can annoy, but not actually resist a regular army, is the type that has weapons that are not authorized by the second amendment. You are conflating the two, by saying, flatly, that a militia can resist a regular army, without recognizing that a militia authorized by the second amendment would not be able to do so. As the specific question asked in the OP is whether the second amendment of the united states constitution was intended to, and was effective at, combatting possible tyranny of our govt, any examples you use of militias that are not authorized by the second amendment are utterly irrelevant and not within the scope of this thread, but are only a distraction. > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > To do what? > > Yes, they’re _amazingly_ well equipped to bomb a city. And if a group of folks are obliging enough to wear target uniforms, the US military can smash them like so many enemy shipyards or enemy airfields. They’re equipped for that part. > > But the _next_ part? The boots-on-the-ground part? The part where uniformed guys walk around saying Hey Good Ta See Ya Good Ta Know Ya? Where – after pointing overwhelming firepower at areas American forces don’t yet occupy – they _occupy,_ hanging out among civilians _without_ blasting away at said civilians, while said civilians hang out near said obliging folks wearing target uniforms? > > Are they equipped for that? Has that been going well for them? [They already have boots on the ground.](http://www.dailywire.com/sites/default/files/styles/article_full/public/uploads/2017/08/warriorcop.jpg?itok=5V2TAXcV) Have you not noticed the militarization of the police in the last decade or so? When you start your insurrection against the lawful (if in your mind, tyrannical) govt, which side are they going to be on? > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’m guessing they’d have sent someone else. And I’m guessing that, if _that_ one got killed, they’d have sent _another_ one to also get killed. But I’m also guessing that something in that story would eventually change, because – hey, weren’t you just mentioning history? I’m pretty sure there are lessons from history about how things have been known to change when a thing like that drags on for a good long while. You know what changes? They don’t stop sending in soldiers. They change their ROE. They start shooting the civilian that looks a bit suspicious. They start dropping bombs on cities. If you think that taking potshots at soldiers or police in your city is going to get popular support to come to your side of the revolution, it is probably best that you think again. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fighting-tyranny-a-purpose-of-the-2nd-amendment-and-if-so-at-what-level-of-government/799295/88 "2017-10-20T15:40:32Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You know what changes? They don’t stop sending in soldiers. They change their ROE. They start shooting the civilian that looks a bit suspicious. They start dropping bombs on cities. Yes, I’ve heard – and I’ve also heard that such a change in ROE hasn’t had a great track record in the winning-hearts-and-minds department. It doesn’t seem to spark increased popular support; it seems to get more locals, ah, up in arms. That’s how it’s played out before, right? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fighting-tyranny-a-purpose-of-the-2nd-amendment-and-if-so-at-what-level-of-government/799295/89 "2017-10-20T15:59:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Federal? State? Local? > What counts as “tyranny” when it comes to defending yourself with weaponry? Any and all. Don’t forget township trustees and zoning boards. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fighting-tyranny-a-purpose-of-the-2nd-amendment-and-if-so-at-what-level-of-government/799295/90 "2017-10-20T16:01:44Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Oh, sorry. Let me clarify: you said you were having trouble sussing out an argument here “that doesn’t contain an element of hero-fantasy that it’s _your_ .357 specifically that holds back the tide of oppression.” I guess I’m saying, in reply: instead of figuring it contains an element of “hero-fantasy”, could you suss out an argument built around just as easily thinking that someone else can easily fire shots? I’m still not sure I’m getting your point, but it doesn’t really matter if the gun in question belongs to you or another citizen - privately-owned arms aren’t holding back fascism in America. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fighting-tyranny-a-purpose-of-the-2nd-amendment-and-if-so-at-what-level-of-government/799295/91 "2017-10-20T16:23:03Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Fair point, but what if your local government is tyrannical and your state and federal governments are indifferent to your plight? I would say you could call higher level tyrannical if they are supporting the tyranny of local governments. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fighting-tyranny-a-purpose-of-the-2nd-amendment-and-if-so-at-what-level-of-government/799295/92 "2017-10-20T16:25:28Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Since you are talking about an armed rebellion against a tyrannical state. You may be talking about it but the Constitution isn’t. The purpose of the amendment is to have a country whereby the primary means of defense against a foreign power is a militia. In the late 18th century, this was a perfectly reasonable position to take. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fighting-tyranny-a-purpose-of-the-2nd-amendment-and-if-so-at-what-level-of-government/799295/93 "2017-10-20T16:28:16Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Any and all. > > Don’t forget township trustees and zoning boards. :mad: [Killdozer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Heemeyer) FTW. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fighting-tyranny-a-purpose-of-the-2nd-amendment-and-if-so-at-what-level-of-government/799295/94 "2017-10-20T16:32:22Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > [Killdozer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Heemeyer) FTW. 😉 Off the main topic i know, but I thinking having your Wiki Page say “Known For: Killdozer Rampage” is pretty bad ass. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fighting-tyranny-a-purpose-of-the-2nd-amendment-and-if-so-at-what-level-of-government/799295/95 "2017-10-20T16:34:24Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’m guessing they’d have sent someone else. And I’m guessing that, if _that_ one got killed, they’d have sent _another_ one to also get killed. But I’m also guessing that something in that story would eventually change, because – hey, weren’t you just mentioning history? I’m pretty sure there are lessons from history about how things have been known to change when a thing like that drags on for a good long while. > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > But you don’t need to “start up your own government” to win; you can just kill off A’s troops left and right until A gets replaced by B – and if B is a big improvement over A, then figure that’s a win for C wins even if C never actually got around to putting on target uniforms of their own; that was A’s job, now it’s B’s job. Is that Left and right, huh? Maybe also up and down, back and forth, and in and out? How many soldiers in a regular army do you think a guy with a handgun is going to kill? Guerrillas always take much more casualties then regular soldiers. So who’s going to run out of people first? > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I have. Gosh, that’s weird; the first time, you hedged with an “apparently” – but this time, you just flatly state that I haven’t? I guess that marks a point where your post is _decidedly_ in error? If you feel like making more, I’ll point 'em out. I was trying to be fair and give you the benefit of the doubt. For example, you implied you have served in combat. I don’t know for a fact that you made that up so I acted as if it was true. Even though you obviously don’t know the kinds of thing the average person with combat experience would know. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fighting-tyranny-a-purpose-of-the-2nd-amendment-and-if-so-at-what-level-of-government/799295/96 "2017-10-20T16:50:09Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Left and right, huh? Maybe also up and down, back and forth, and in and out? How many soldiers in a regular army do you think a guy with a handgun is going to kill? Guerrillas always take much more casualties then regular soldiers. So who’s going to run out of people first? What’s that quote that always gets attributed to Ho Chi Minh, about losing ten men to every one but of course still getting the win? > [@](#): > > I was trying to be fair and give you the benefit of the doubt. Well, what you posted was incorrect. So if you “trying to be fair” and giving “the benefit of the doubt” leads you to post stuff that’s incorrect, maybe you should just stick to the modest goal of trying to be correct? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fighting-tyranny-a-purpose-of-the-2nd-amendment-and-if-so-at-what-level-of-government/799295/97 "2017-10-20T17:04:36Z")
You will run out of soldiers before you run out of armed civilians…but ONLY if all those armed civilians have the same definition of “tyranny” as you do. And they most certainly don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fighting-tyranny-a-purpose-of-the-2nd-amendment-and-if-so-at-what-level-of-government/799295/98 "2017-10-20T17:10:09Z")
I can only think of one definition of “tyranny” that I think a majority of armed civilians would agree on - “The government trying to take their guns” ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fighting-tyranny-a-purpose-of-the-2nd-amendment-and-if-so-at-what-level-of-government/799295/99 "2017-10-20T17:17:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > To succeed, a band of guerrillas has to become a uniformed army. US Army and USMC published doctrine disagrees with that assertion. See Chapter 4 Insurgency Prerequisites and Fundamentals in [FM3-24/MCWP 3-33.5](https://www.apd.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/fm3_24.pdf) Counterinsurgency. Paragraph 4-74 is the major point but there’s important related material prior to that in the chapter. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fighting-tyranny-a-purpose-of-the-2nd-amendment-and-if-so-at-what-level-of-government/799295/100 "2017-10-20T18:20:56Z")
Within the gun community, are there voices, any voices at all, saying “Guys, we really need to cool it with the militia/tyranny stuff, okay? At best it only makes us look like fanatics who have to be contained, and at worst it just makes us look like idiots”? Is that a thing, or have any such voices been silenced or excommunicated? If there’s gunfire between a handful of yahoos holed up in a bird refuge and the US Army, I know which way to bet; don’t you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fighting-tyranny-a-purpose-of-the-2nd-amendment-and-if-so-at-what-level-of-government/799295.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-fighting-tyranny-a-purpose-of-the-2nd-amendment-and-if-so-at-what-level-of-government/799295.md?page=6)