# Is flashing for beads a form of sexual harassment? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 2, 2017, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-flashing-for-beads-a-form-of-sexual-harassment/800540 "2017-11-02T19:24:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Bettor\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Bettor\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bettor_Man)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-flashing-for-beads-a-form-of-sexual-harassment/800540/101 "2017-11-05T11:30:17Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > You have no business deciding for others what is or is not demeaning to them. > [@Budget Player Cadet](#): > > …women (and men, obviously) do demeaning things in public for all kinds of stupid reasons _all the time_. These two statements are adversarial. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-flashing-for-beads-a-form-of-sexual-harassment/800540/102 "2017-11-05T15:26:44Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > When we see feminists doing things for feminism in order to appeal to other feminists, can we _maybe_ not blame those things on the patriarchy? Is there literally any expression of gender politics that _can’t_ be blamed on the patriarchy? Cuz it really seems like if you can blame this on the patriarchy, then you can blame literally _anything_ on the patriarchy. There are folks who believe that intercourse itself (consensual sex) is inherently rape and a tool of the patriarchy. Every ideology has its extremists. And if there are people who blame everything on Obama, I don’t see why there can’t be people who blame everything on the patriarchy. Some people just have one-track minds. I used to know a guy who blamed everything on the Federal Reserve. Gay people being oppressed left and right? ‘‘If only we abolished the federal reserve…’’ ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-flashing-for-beads-a-form-of-sexual-harassment/800540/103 "2017-11-05T15:40:31Z")
> [@Bettor\_Man](#): > > These two statements are adversarial. Perhaps I should have clarified: things that _others_ see as demeaning. I do things on my way to and from work every day that I’m sure some see as, if not demeaning, then at least embarrassing. Those people can fuck right off, I’m not going to stop singing along to my music. > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > There are folks who believe that intercourse itself (consensual sex) is inherently rape and a tool of the patriarchy. Every ideology has its extremists. And if there are people who blame everything on Obama, I don’t see why there can’t be people who blame everything on the patriarchy. Some people just have one-track minds. I used to know a guy who blamed everything on the Federal Reserve. Gay people being oppressed left and right? ‘‘If only we abolished the federal reserve…’’ I’m sure there are crazy feminists who are so far outside the mainstream that they’re effectively non-feminists. My point is that their opinions are not somehow tools of the patriarchy, or if they are, then “patriarchy” can mean anything at any time and is essentially meaningless, ergo we should be more careful with our terms. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-flashing-for-beads-a-form-of-sexual-harassment/800540/104 "2017-11-05T17:04:44Z")
So one day quite a few years ago I’m on my way home from the grocery store. Trying to make the turn off the main highway into the narrower side road on which I lived, it was a bit of a trick because there was another car waiting to pull out into the highway. Suddenly, the attractive blonde I had never seen before who was driving the convertible (I think it may have even been a red one) pulls down her tube top and starts fondling her breasts before pulling it back up and driving off. Why was this not one of the better days of my life? I was the passenger in the car my mother was driving. I have no idea what the hell was up with that. ---
**Author:** ![Tatterdemalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@Tatterdemalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tatterdemalion)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-flashing-for-beads-a-form-of-sexual-harassment/800540/105 "2017-11-05T17:15:43Z")
> [@Budget Player Cadet](#): > > When we see feminists doing things for feminism in order to appeal to other feminists, can we maybe not blame those things on the patriarchy? Is there literally any expression of gender politics that can’t be blamed on the patriarchy? Cuz it really seems like if you can blame this on the patriarchy, then you can blame literally anything on the patriarchy. When something bad happens it’s a natural human response to blame whoever is in charge. The Patriarchy is in charge, allegedly, so of course it gets the blame for anything bad that befalls someone who isn’t a patriarch. In other words, no I don’t think that there is any expression of gender politics that can’t be blamed on the group that is on top, whoever that is. Of course it is over simplistic to conflate “The Patriarchy” with any particular male. Me I blame Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-flashing-for-beads-a-form-of-sexual-harassment/800540/106 "2017-11-05T20:14:24Z")
> [@Tatterdemalion](#): > > Me I blame Trump. If Trump had anything to do with it, there would be way more groping. > [@Budget Player Cadet](#): > > I’m sure there are crazy feminists who are so far outside the mainstream that they’re effectively non-feminists. My point is that their opinions are not somehow tools of the patriarchy, or if they are, then “patriarchy” can mean anything at any time and is essentially meaningless, ergo we should be more careful with our terms. Oh, I see what you’re trying to say now. I can see **Unna** ’s point, though, and I don’t think she’s just blaming the patriarchy willy-nilly. Policing women’s bodies (for whatever reason) is consistent with patriarchal attitudes and behaviors, and is, therefore, reinforcing the patriarchy. ‘‘You don’t really want what you think you want’’ is a favored refrain among misogynists. I dunno if we can _blame_ the patriarchy, but it’s certainly being reinforced. It’s like those feminists screaming at **Unna** are just doing the work for all the folks they claim to oppose. Which is ironic and terrible and they should get pushback for it. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-flashing-for-beads-a-form-of-sexual-harassment/800540/107 "2017-11-05T20:50:06Z")
> [@Tatterdemalion](#): > > When something bad happens it’s a natural human response to blame whoever is in charge. The Patriarchy is in charge, allegedly, so of course it gets the blame for anything bad that befalls someone who isn’t a patriarch. In other words, no I don’t think that there is any expression of gender politics that can’t be blamed on the group that is on top, whoever that is. Granting this argument: power is not uniform over all of society. The patriarchy may have the power in general, but in any given social group or situation, there may be other social power structures that are relevant. The patriarchy sure as hell isn’t dominant in your average feminism Tumblr thread, just to give a simple example. But I don’t grant this argument. It oversimplifies the way we thinks, and turns “the most powerful problem” into an all-purpose bogeyman. More importantly, it runs the risk of _missing the real causes of our problems_. Which, like it or not, sometimes happens to be feminism. And speaking _as_ a feminist, it’s important that we’re able to recognize when that happens, so we can self-correct and don’t end up being both wrong and dicks about it. > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Oh, I see what you’re trying to say now. I can see **Unna** ’s point, though, and I don’t think she’s just blaming the patriarchy willy-nilly. Policing women’s bodies (for whatever reason) is consistent with patriarchal attitudes and behaviors, and is, therefore, reinforcing the patriarchy. ‘‘You don’t really want what you think you want’’ is a favored refrain among misogynists. I dunno if we can _blame_ the patriarchy, but it’s certainly being reinforced. It’s like those feminists screaming at **Unna** are just doing the work for all the folks they claim to oppose. Which is ironic and terrible and they should get pushback for it. Patriarchy is into policing women’s bodies, no contest there. But on the other hand, _so is second-wave feminism_, unless I’ve completely misunderstood second-wave feminism. There’s a significant line of thought in feminist activism that says that attempts to be “sexy” are essentially internalizations of the patriarchy, and that it should be avoided. I’m about 70% sure I’m not just talking out of my ass here. And the fact that the person who hated on her was doing so from the context of feminism and appealing _to_ feminism in the hopes she would stop… I dunno, that seems like a pretty clear point against it being about the patriarchy. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-flashing-for-beads-a-form-of-sexual-harassment/800540/108 "2017-11-05T22:04:54Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Patriarchy is into policing women’s bodies, no contest there. But on the other hand, _so is second-wave feminism_, unless I’ve completely misunderstood second-wave feminism. There’s a significant line of thought in feminist activism that says that attempts to be “sexy” are essentially internalizations of the patriarchy, and that it should be avoided. I’m about 70% sure I’m not just talking out of my ass here. And the fact that the person who hated on her was doing so from the context of feminism and appealing _to_ feminism in the hopes she would stop… I dunno, that seems like a pretty clear point against it being about the patriarchy. Oh, you probably know better than me. I don’t know my feminist theory well at all. I don’t think you’re talking out of your ass. I’m saying that I don’t think **Unn** a’s point is that the patriarchy put those ideas into the heads of her 2nd wave feminist friends, but rather they are unwittingly reinforcing the patriarchy by shaming her for doing what she wants with her own body. They are playing into the patriarchy’s hands, so to speak. That was my interpretation of her comment. I don’t believe any singular ideology is universally in the right, and there are problematic aspects of critical gender theory, including the impetus to make everything about sexism, so your overall point is strong. In this particular case, I think it’s altogether possible that **Unna** ’s friends were just jealous and using feminism as a bludgeon to put down someone having a good time. This fits one of my other guiding philosophies, that sometimes people are just assholes. I often question at times what allegiance I owe, if any, to the old-wave feminists who came before me. I understand it better within the context of certain behaviors and expectations having never really been questioned until that time, but I feel like I inhabit an entirely different universe than the one that birthed 1st and 2nd wave feminism. On the flip side, there’s an even _newer_ wave of feminism that seems to conflict with my own, if not in its core tenets than at least in its ham-fisted execution… (See the offending Cracked article noted above.) But I guess a part of getting old is dealing with the radicalization of those who come after you. Truly, few things piss me off like being patronized. It’s like being scoured with steel wool. I’m equally pissed off whether that message is coming from the patriarchy or other feminists. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2017, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-flashing-for-beads-a-form-of-sexual-harassment/800540/109 "2017-11-06T00:04:46Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Why was this not one of the better days of my life? I was the passenger in the car my mother was driving. And she refused to circle around the block. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2017, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-flashing-for-beads-a-form-of-sexual-harassment/800540/110 "2017-11-06T02:17:45Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Have you ever seen a wet tshirt contest? > > Would you consider doing one? Depends entirely on the crowd and the situation. But shoot I wrote that I danced topless, why would dancing with more clothing be worse? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2017, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-flashing-for-beads-a-form-of-sexual-harassment/800540/111 "2017-11-06T02:18:55Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And she refused to circle around the block. I wonder if her mother was in the car, too. Since my first thought was ‘‘It was a bet’’… maybe both your Moms made a bet! ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2017, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-flashing-for-beads-a-form-of-sexual-harassment/800540/112 "2017-11-06T16:14:44Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And she refused to circle around the block. Maybe she just had an itch? Back in the 3rd grade one time our whole class was working quietly at our desks and our teacher was sitting up front focused on grading papers. Well she had an itch and reached far down into her shirt to scratch it. She never even looked up the whole time so she probably was so focused she forgot about us. Kind of like as a guy we sometimes have to adjust ourselves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-flashing-for-beads-a-form-of-sexual-harassment/800540.md?page=5)