# Is Gambling Destructive to Society? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 22, 2005, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gambling-destructive-to-society/318107 "2005-08-22T14:34:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gambling-destructive-to-society/318107/1 "2005-08-22T14:34:30Z")
In [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=329735), a lengthy discussion has evolved concerning whether or not Bill Bennett is a hypocrite for having been a high-stakes gambler while simultanously publishing books extolling virtue and clean living - but not expressly condemning gambling in those books. In the course of that discussion, **holmes** posted the following claim: > [@holmes](#): > > Bricker for YOU gambling is entertainment, but for many, many others it’s a addiction and a money pit and that can’t be frugal. If you note, Bennett explained that his gambling wasn’t a problem because he didn’t use the milk money, his family didn’t do without, he could “control” it. Why? Why would he say that unless he realizes that for many people gambling is considered a dangerous vice, no different than drinking too much or having sex with too many strangers? And lots of people do use the milk money. > > Even if HE could handle it, even if HE could afford to wire over a million dollars to cover his debt, even if his wife didn’t notice the lack of funds. That doesn remove the burden of what gambling does to the society and why he got tagged with being a hypocrite. You can’t rail and claim to defend society while engaging in a practice that helps to injure it, especially to the tune of millions of dollars or do you not believe that gambling has a negative effect on society as whole? Yes I know you think in order to be a hypocrite one must specifically list the issue. > > If you believe that things that injure society should be railed against, it looks very convenient not to rail against one of the obvious ones or to say that “I’m different, than those degenerate guys who do spend the milk money”. > > You don’t hear too many stories of Mr. Johnson losing his family’s business or even his family, because he spent too much seeing The Magic Flute or watching the Lakers. There is a finite amount of funds required to see the Opera; there’s not a lot of “sell your cars for tickets” lots on Broadway, to allow you to keep seeing the Opera, once you’ve run out of cash. I’ve never heard of a guy getting a “tune up”, because he missed the intermission. > > Gambling is not the same as seeing the Opera, except in the broadest sense of the term entertainment. For you it may be and so this may not apply to you personally. I believe you when you say you consider the your money the price of admission; I also trust you realize that most people gamble for the sole purpose of beating a system that was designed not to be beaten, at least by the majority of it’s players and that is a waste of time and resources, even if they enjoy it. Just because a person enjoys a thing, doesn’t mean it’s good for them. I thought this proposition was worthy of its own thread… namely, the idea that gambling is a social ill. Needless to say, I don’t agree. While gambling can become a social ill for a particular person, so can, say, alcohol. But I would not view alcohol sales in general as a social ill, because the vast majority of alcohol consumers are able to enjoy the product in moderation and with no ill effects. So, too, with gambling: the vast majority of visitors to Las Vegas and Atlantic City come, gamble a bit, enjoy the sights, and leave. I don’t agree that that legal gambling represents any sort of general ill to society. Discuss. (Please – this thread is about gambling as a social ill to society… not about the hypocrisy or lack thereof of Bennett. Thanks.) ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gambling-destructive-to-society/318107/2 "2005-08-22T14:47:22Z")
**Bricker** Am I allowed to argue the spin-off effects of legalized gambling? Such as urban blight, increased crime, prostitution etc. or am I locked into the specific issue of gambling in and of itself? ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gambling-destructive-to-society/318107/3 "2005-08-22T14:49:57Z")
And, are you counting the state runs lotteries as gambling? ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gambling-destructive-to-society/318107/4 "2005-08-22T14:56:11Z")
Oh and what do you define as a social ill? Violence, death, loss of property, divorce, reduced property values in an area, increased taxes, increased traffic, increase in STD, due to increased sexual activity, increased drug activity, etc. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gambling-destructive-to-society/318107/5 "2005-08-22T15:01:23Z")
And how do you propose to ensure that gambling is the single cause of any of these social ills? Do we restrict ourselves to non-drinking, non-smoking, not socially disadvantaged in other ways gamblers only? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gambling-destructive-to-society/318107/6 "2005-08-22T15:05:25Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > **Bricker** Am I allowed to argue the spin-off effects of legalized gambling? Such as urban blight, increased crime, prostitution etc. or am I locked into the specific issue of gambling in and of itself? Sure. If those can be shown to reliably be caused by the introduction of gambling, they are absolutely fair game. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gambling-destructive-to-society/318107/7 "2005-08-22T15:07:04Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > And, are you counting the state runs lotteries as gambling? I think a fair definition of “gambling” would include state-run lotteries, but if someone wants to make a case for “slots/table games/casino” gambling ONLY being a social ill, I’m open to that. (Or the reverse: that state-run lotteries are social ills, but casino-type gambling is not). I doubt either either proposition is true. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gambling-destructive-to-society/318107/8 "2005-08-22T15:09:34Z")
Gambling is harmful to society simply because it gives politicians a chance to make it look like they’re helping the economy, while in reality doing nothing of the sort. There are plenty of idiots out there who think that building a casino or running a lottery will “generate money”, like a new factory would. No - it just moves money from one group of people to another. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gambling-destructive-to-society/318107/9 "2005-08-22T15:15:38Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Gambling is harmful to society simply because it gives politicians a chance to make it look like they’re helping the economy, while in reality doing nothing of the sort. There are plenty of idiots out there who think that building a casino or running a lottery will “generate money”, like a new factory would. No - it just moves money from one group of people to another. So gambling is harmful because: 1. Politicians claim it will be helpful; 2. That help never materializes; 3. And the lack of that help is harmful. Um… You’re not claiming that gambling hurts… but that it _fails to help_. ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gambling-destructive-to-society/318107/10 "2005-08-22T15:16:58Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > **Bricker** Am I allowed to argue the spin-off effects of legalized gambling? Such as urban blight, increased crime, prostitution etc. or am I locked into the specific issue of gambling in and of itself? I’d be pretty careful arguing secondary effects. Has legalized gambling caused urban blight (how are you defining it) in Las Vega? Last I checked, it was one of the fastest growing communities in the country and was experiencing a buidling boom. Is there more crime in Las Vegas or Atlantic City per capita than in other areas? How 'bout Biloxi or other areas that have casino gambling? More prostitution? The same arguement is usually made against adult businesses (strip clubs) etc, but I’ve found that the arguement doesn’t hold water when examined (there’s actually less crime and property values either stay the same or go up because of the increasd amount of traffic). ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gambling-destructive-to-society/318107/11 "2005-08-22T15:18:20Z")
WRT lotteries, it’s often said they are a “tax on stupidity”. And it seems to be the case that a disproportionate percentage of the money they take in comes from those who are less well off. In terms of percentage of income, the take is strongly skewed away from the rich, so a lottery can be characterized as a regressive “tax”. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gambling-destructive-to-society/318107/12 "2005-08-22T15:19:03Z")
I believe gambling is less harmful to society than making it illegal and forcing it underground would be. (This is separate from the question of whether society would be better off if no one chose to gamble – I might be inclined to agree with that, given that a few people can’t handle it). But I don’t advocate preventing those that can gamble responsibly from doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gambling-destructive-to-society/318107/13 "2005-08-22T15:24:37Z")
I would argue that gambling, like alcohol and other such addiction certainly is a social ill and can cause damage to society as a whole. But at the same time I’d posit that it’s a risk we, as a society, have decided to tolerate. We tolerate all sorts of things that are generally agreed to have negative consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gambling-destructive-to-society/318107/14 "2005-08-22T15:27:32Z")
Gee, it has been a long time since I noodled over this one. (And I speak as a bit of a gambler myself.) I suppose it has to do with encouraging people to think they can get money for nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gambling-destructive-to-society/318107/15 "2005-08-22T15:31:35Z")
Interesting thread. I probably have a unique insight into this issue, as my grandfather supported himself and his children through gambling for decades. Of course, being a numbers runner, he wasn’t doing this legally. And he certainly wasn’t contributing to the betterment of society in general, even though he ran a clean and honest game, all cash up front. Nobody got their legs broken with him. He got pinched a couple of times, but was able to avoid any real consequences for his actions. This experience, though, he deeply resented. He couldn’t see that what he was doing was any different from the state running a lottery, or a politically connected corporation running a casino or race track. On this last one, he had an excellent point. Those same people who go to numbers rackets or casinos to bet the farm often do the same thing with the legal lotteries. When I was in college, I worked at a convenience store, and I’d regularly see people drop hundreds of dollars at a time playing this. Gambling is a vice that provides society with no general good. However, it is a vice most people indulge in to some degree, and therefore should be tolerated and managed, not banned outright. Banning it only shoves it into an unregulated underground that unscrupulous people can exploit. Again, my grandfather proves that. For all of his personal rectitude, he was involved in an organization that was corrupt and corrupting. And of course, any government that can bust my casual poker games is too powerful and invasive, and an affront to liberty in many other ways as well. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gambling-destructive-to-society/318107/16 "2005-08-22T15:54:01Z")
I view gambling as entertainment. Just as a visit to the opera may set me back $200, and leave me with nothing but enjoyment during the activity, and fond memory AFTER the activity, gambling is fun to do and fun to remember doing. I see it as similar to any other form of entertainment in this regard, with the added bonus that every now and then, it’s cheap, free, or even returns money. I’d be very interested in seeing evidence of social ills such as prostitution being caused by, or increased by, the presence of legalized gambling. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gambling-destructive-to-society/318107/17 "2005-08-22T15:58:18Z")
You know, all in all I enjoyed gambling more when it was mostly illegal. A trip to Vegas was something special. Now it is an everyday thing in the US. On the other hand, I will buy $100 in lotto tickets when I come home next week. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gambling-destructive-to-society/318107/18 "2005-08-22T15:59:29Z")
> [@](#): > > The Costs to Society > > The costs of pathological gambling extend beyond the individual victim and his or her family, often including employers, business associates, neighbors, relatives, social service providers and others. The Commission attached an estimated financial price tag to a handful of the costs incurred by pathological gamblers. The immensity of these costs alone is troublesome-and points to the reality that if all the financial costs of problem and pathological gambling were tabulated, the totals would be staggering. > > "In addition to the costs of problem and pathological gambling borne by the individual and his or her family, there are broader costs to society. NORC estimated that the annual average costs of job loss, unemployment benefits, welfare benefits, poor physical and mental health, and problem or pathological gambling treatment is approximately $1,200 per pathological gambler per year and approximately $715 per problem gambler per year. NORC further estimated that lifetime costs (bankruptcy, arrests, imprisonment, legal fees for divorce, and so forth) at $10,550 per pathological gambler, and $5,130 per problem gambler. With these figures, NORC calculated that the aggregate annual costs of problem and pathological gambling caused by the factors cited above were approximately $5 billion per year, in addition to $40 billion in estimated lifetime costs. > > “NORC admittedly ‘focuse[d] on a small number of tangible consequences’ and did not attempt to estimate the financial costs of any gambling-related incidences of theft, embezzlement, suicide, domestic violence, child abuse and neglect, and the non-legal costs of divorce. As a result, its figures must be taken as minimums.” (p.4-14) > [@](#): > > “How can we begin to measure the social impact of individuals who spend their children’s milk money or cash their welfare checks to buy lottery tickets, as the Commission heard during visits to convenience stores? We cannot, but the Commission can acknowledge that when gambling is promoted as ‘the only way to get ahead’ and, in particular, targets those who do not have ‘leisure dollars’ to spend, the economic and social, indeed, the moral fabric of our nation is damaged.” (p. 7-18) Hey that sounds familar… > [@](#): > > "Individuals with gambling problems seem to constitute a higher percentage of the homeless population. The Atlantic City Rescue Mission reported to the Commission that 22 percent of its clients are homeless due to a gambling problem. A survey of homeless service providers in Chicago found that 33 percent considered gambling a contributing factor in the homelessness of people in their program. > [@](#): > > The gambling industry has attempted to downplay the magnitude of gambling addiction in this country by stating that the vast majority of Americans display no visible signs of a gambling addiction. However, the Commission’s findings portray gambling as a highly addictive activity. In addition to concerns about underreporting, the reality is that a signficant number of Americans do not gamble, and thus are at no risk for gambling addiction. NORC’s survey found that 37% of American adults did not place a bet in the past year (NORC, p. 25). The extreme rates of gambling addiction among casino employees provides further evidence of the link between exposure to gambling environments and the development of severe gambling problems. > > “The incidence of problem and pathological gambling among regular gamblers appears to be much higher than in the general population. In NORC’s survey of 530 patrons at gambling facilities, more than 13 percent met the lifetime criteria for pathological or problem gambling, while another 18 percent were classified as ‘at risk’ for developing severe gambling problems.” (pp. 4-5, 4-9) Admittedly from a biased source:[Family Values](http://www.family.org/cforum/fosi/gambling/) [What the Fed’s think (1999)](http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/ngisc/index.html) Pdf ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gambling-destructive-to-society/318107/19 "2005-08-22T16:00:58Z")
Perhaps you could also explain why prostitution is a social ill but gambling is not - after all, a visit to the whorehouse “may set me back $200, and leave me with nothing but enjoyment during the activity, and fond memory AFTER the activity, fucking is fun to do and fun to remember doing.” For that matter, kindly tell us what definitions of vice, social ill, and morality you would submit to being held to in this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gambling-destructive-to-society/318107/20 "2005-08-22T16:01:27Z")
Gambling in general is not destructive to society. But in Bennett’s case it was an addiction and it was hypocritical for him to condemn other people’s addictions while he was doing nothing to control his own. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gambling-destructive-to-society/318107.md?page=2)