# Is Gary Gygax the father of modern fantasy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 6, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653 "2009-02-06T01:38:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/1 "2009-02-06T01:38:49Z")
I just finished reading _Name of the Wind_, and I loved it. On visiting Patrick Rothfuss’s blog, I learned he was an avid gamer. I recently read _The Book of the First Law_ by Joe Abercrombie. On visiting his blog, I confirmed that he was once a gamer. (As if Ninefingers weren’t confirmation enough). This summer I read _The Lies of Locke Lamora_ by Scott Lynch. On visiting his blog, you’ll never guess what I learned. Yep: gamer. (Actually, with him, it might even have been mentioned on the book jacket). A few years ago, in reading _Perdido Street Station_, I hit a certain throwaway scene that had me laughing out loud as I realized something key about China Mieville’s hobbies. Hopefully you’ve read this far before hitting “reply.” At one time, of course Tolkien was the father of modern fantasy literature. But time passes, new generations are born and grow up. And it looks to me like many of the new key players in the field of fantasy fiction are deeply influenced by tabletop roleplaying games, of which Gygax is certainly the key creator (oh, hush, Dave Arneson). It makes me wonder if in twenty years, a new set of punk-sensibility fantasy writers will come along, heavily influenced by Blizzard. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/2 "2009-02-06T01:45:20Z")
I was going to say Robert E. Howard & be contrarian. I see what you mean, though. ---
**Author:** ![Freejooky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba8739/32.png) [@Freejooky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freejooky)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/3 "2009-02-06T01:51:22Z")
Steven Erickson began his epic Malazan book of the fallen series as a campaign for tabletop RPG that grew out of control. But let’s all admit that Gygax was _shamelessly_ stealing from Tolkien. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/4 "2009-02-06T02:26:26Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It makes me wonder if in twenty years, a new set of punk-sensibility fantasy writers will come along, heavily influenced by Blizzard. Blizzard is just ripping off Games Workshop so I’d look for that. I see your argument but in the majority of cases where we can see direct parallels between Gygax and a fantasy work I think that the author of the fantasy was more influenced by Gygax’s major influence, Tolkien, rather than Gygax himself. There was a correlation between Tolkien fans and D&D nerds, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/5 "2009-02-06T02:27:24Z")
Oddly enough, when I tried to read the first _Gord the Rogue_ book, I thought that Gary Gygax might well kill modern fantasy. Ugh. And EGG was shamelessly stealing from a lot more than Tolkien. Gaming has certainly influenced some good writers in modern fantasy. It has also given us Rose Estes and Hickman & Weiss and Salvatore… so I’m a bit ambivalent about this influence, I must say. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/6 "2009-02-06T02:33:36Z")
Of course not. The number of modern fantasy authors who preceded Gygax is long and varied. Now it’s true that some fantasy authors played roleplaying games, but many more did not, and if you look in the field, you’ll find that the roleplaying game fantasy is only a very small part of it. Tolkien is by far a greater influence. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/7 "2009-02-06T02:38:21Z")
I think some folks are missing the generational thing. I meant to make it more clear, but forgot. By my thinking, at this point Tolkien is the **grand** father of modern fantasy: he was Gygax’s direct influence, the generation of writers that came directly before Gygax did. There’s no doubt that Tolkien is the father of tabletop gaming. These modern upstarts? They may have gone to grandpa Tolkien’s house for Christmas and Thanksgiving, but they lived with Pa Gygax. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/8 "2009-02-06T02:42:01Z")
I guess you need to define what you mean by “modern” fantasy? What predates it besides Tolkien? What encompasses it? Has it ended yet, and we’re now in “post-modern” fantasy? ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/9 "2009-02-06T02:43:58Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I think some folks are missing the generational thing. I meant to make it more clear, but forgot. > > By my thinking, at this point Tolkien is the **grand** father of modern fantasy: he was Gygax’s direct influence, the generation of writers that came directly before Gygax did. There’s no doubt that Tolkien is the father of tabletop gaming. > > These modern upstarts? They may have gone to grandpa Tolkien’s house for Christmas and Thanksgiving, but they lived with Pa Gygax. > > Daniel And that’s where the disagreement lies. You seem to be claiming that because Gygax copied Tokien that anyone from that point on who encountered Gygax’s version could not also be influenced by Tolkien and that’s a premise that I strongly disagree with. Gygax definitely has his descendants but even today Tolkien has imitators. There is no “generational” process where it gets passed down; the precedent doesn’t vanish because someone took up the same concepts. People still go to Tolkien by preference even if they’ve encountered Gygax. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/10 "2009-02-06T02:47:00Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > I guess you need to define what you mean by “modern” fantasy? What predates it besides Tolkien? What encompasses it? Has it ended yet, and we’re now in “post-modern” fantasy? I’m not referring to “modern” as an era; rather, I’m referring to what’s being written and talked about now, especially by novelists just emerging on the scene. From what I’m reading, Rothfuss, Abercrombie, and Lynch are making all kinds of waves as new authors. I don’t know that they’re the top three new fantasists out there, but they’re certainly among the top 10. And China Mieville is widely credited as one of the top young fantasists working, I think: love him or hate him, he’s a force in the field. I just think it’s interesting to think of all these young Turks having been so heavily influenced by Gygax, and think it might be interesting to discuss how that influence shows through. I’m not really sure how it would (except in scenes like the one I mentioned from PSS, or in Ninefinger’s unique ability of +4str +4con when under stress), but I’m sure it’s there. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/11 "2009-02-06T02:49:57Z")
> [@Just\_Some\_Guy](#): > > There is no “generational” process where it gets passed down; the precedent doesn’t vanish because someone took up the same concepts. People still go to Tolkien by preference even if they’ve encountered Gygax. Hmm. Not sure I understand you. Certainly people still are influenced by Tolkien. The difference is that they’re also majorly influenced by Gygax in a way that writers of Gygax’s generation were not. Given how different a form gaming is from reading a novel, and given how obsessive a lot of teenaged gamers are (and I imagine that young fantasy novelists swim in the deep end of the obsessive-nerd pool), I think it’s fair to trace significant influence through Gygax. FWIW, I think he was a quirky genius, but not an especially good writer. I’m not claiming this is a great thing, this influence I"m talking about (although I don’t think it’s a bad thing, either). Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/12 "2009-02-06T03:02:48Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > By my thinking, at this point Tolkien is the **grand** father of modern fantasy: he was Gygax’s direct influence, the generation of writers that came directly before Gygax did. > > These modern upstarts? They may have gone to grandpa Tolkien’s house for Christmas and Thanksgiving, but they lived with Pa Gygax. And then Peter Jackson made these movies . . . Seriously, Tolkein is still about a hundred thousand times more influential than Gygax (or anyone else) in my experience. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/13 "2009-02-06T03:20:03Z")
> [@Just\_Some\_Guy](#): > > Blizzard is just ripping off Games Workshop so I’d look for that. Aside from the way their Orcs look, how so? ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/14 "2009-02-06T03:27:41Z")
To go back to an old joke: Everyone knows it was Tolkien [who was influenced by playing the game.](http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/94q1/tolkiendnd.html) ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/15 "2009-02-06T03:37:52Z")
Every nerd I know has also read Tolkien, so I don’t know that correlating RPGs with fantasy authorship means much, since they’ve probably done all of the above. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/16 "2009-02-06T03:43:17Z")
All Gygax did was throw a game mechanic onto the typical Tolkien-clone fantasy. Fantasy tends to be fairly syncretic, Tolkien rather less than most, a typical modern D&D setting (full worlds, rather than ‘themed’ settings, like Al Qadim or Oriental Adventures) more than most. Unless you’ve got a Tolkien-esque story that uses a particular adaptation taken directly from D&D’s game mechanics, or one of their more idiosyncratic adaptations of a real monster (say, portraying Rakshasas as oddly jointed tiger furres), it’s much more likely it’s inspired Tolkien than D&D. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/17 "2009-02-06T04:41:36Z")
LHD, I’m sorry, but IMO saying Gygax is the father of any form of fantasy (or fiction of any sort) is like saying Mario & Luigi are the fathers of modern plumbing. Sure, he was an inventive guy who refined wargame mechanics into a new form in innovative ways, and he was very successful at it. Hats off to him for that. Why gussy that up with irrelevant grandiousity? ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/18 "2009-02-06T04:55:45Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > EGG was shamelessly stealing from a lot more than Tolkien. The early D&D rulebooks provided a sample list of books that Gygax et al. had stolen ideas from; is that list no longer included in the current editions? ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/19 "2009-02-06T05:27:54Z")
**Is Gary Gygax the father of modern fantasy?** No, the slightly creepy unmarried uncle of modern fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/20 "2009-02-06T07:35:58Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > And EGG was shamelessly stealing from a lot more than Tolkien. He pillaged Fritz Leiber’s wonderful Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser series, to name but a few. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653.md?page=2)