# Is Gary Gygax the father of modern fantasy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 6, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653 "2009-02-06T01:38:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/21 "2009-02-06T11:03:25Z")
Which scene in _Perdido Street Station_, **LHoD**? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/22 "2009-02-06T11:14:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Which scene in _Perdido Street Station_, **LHoD**? The protagonist hires a band of psychopathic killers who survive on graverobbing, occasionally finding old tombs inhabited by other creatures and murdering them, and once in awhile finding something like a magic sword in one of the tombs. It’s a pretty sly dig at gaming. I almost titled referred to Gygax as the uncle of modern fantasy, but decided father made more sense. But y’all are raising some good points; I might be making too much of it. I dunno. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/23 "2009-02-06T11:16:19Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The protagonist hires a band of psychopathic killers who survive on graverobbing, occasionally finding old tombs inhabited by other creatures and murdering them, and once in awhile finding something like a magic sword in one of the tombs. It’s a pretty sly dig at gaming. Aah yes, I remember - they are even directly referred to as “Adventurers” ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/24 "2009-02-06T11:21:36Z")
> [@Hunter\_Hawk](#): > > The early D&D rulebooks provided a sample list of books that Gygax et al. had stolen ideas from; is that list no longer included in the current editions? Nope. It’s moot, at this point - so much has been borrowed straight from mythology, and so few of the creatures resemble their original forms (Gnolls, for instance, have stopped being the gnome/troll crossbreeds he originally borrowed from Lord Dunsanay, and have become hyena-men). I don’t believe the creatures have been sourced outside of the original books. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/25 "2009-02-06T11:47:40Z")
To try and jump from the fact that some present fantasy authors have played RPGs to the conclusion that they were influenced in their love of fantasy by the gaming is, I think, putting the cart before the horse. My guess would be that they found fantasy first, and that lead them to the gaming. Or they found both simultaneously. Without having statements from the authors to the effect of: “hey, I started writing this stuff because of the fun I had gaming!” we can’t make the connection the OP wants. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/26 "2009-02-06T11:50:22Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Aah yes, I remember - they are even directly referred to as “Adventurers” The actual line was, I think: _Adventurers! All they care about is money and experience!_ To which my immediate response was: not true! They also want magic items! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/27 "2009-02-06T12:04:38Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > To try and jump from the fact that some present fantasy authors have played RPGs to the conclusion that they were influenced in their love of fantasy by the gaming is, I think, putting the cart before the horse. My guess would be that they found fantasy first, and that lead them to the gaming. Or they found both simultaneously. Without having statements from the authors to the effect of: “hey, I started writing this stuff because of the fun I had gaming!” we can’t make the connection the OP wants. Mieville at least has made such a statement, IIRC: Bas Lag grew out of his adolescent campaign world. Scott Lynch, I believe, worked in the gaming industry before starting his game. I’m not sure about the others, but Abercrombie’s books are IMO the most heavily influenced by gaming tropes of the four I mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/28 "2009-02-06T13:21:16Z")
It’s a fact that Erikson’s books are set in a world that was originally developed for a gaming campaign. In his case it’s likely true. I’d argue that Gygax’s main influence was providing people with a model for world-building: Here’s some graph paper - draw me a map. Where are the cities? Where are the interesting geological features? How is the land subdivided? Tell me about the people that live here, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/29 "2009-02-06T13:46:25Z")
I suspect that Gygax broadened Tolkien’s influence. Sure, there’s a lot of people who are into both, but there’s also people who are only into one or the other (I enjoy D&D, but find LotR dreadfully bland). So while Gygax didn’t really alter the influence, he brought it to a different realm where it could reach a different (if somewhat overlapping) audience. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/30 "2009-02-06T13:52:54Z")
I see a lot of modern pulp fantasy is derived mostly from D&D. So in regards to largely inferior modern fantasy I think \*\*Left Hand of Dorkness \*\*is possibly correct. The better written and more thoughtful fantasy is still clearly inspired by Tolkien and classic sources like legends, myths and the like. There are plenty of exceptions in both directions. Eragon is horribly derivative of Tolkien and fairly poor writing. Going back to Feist’s early efforts, he was inspired mostly by his D&D campaign and the books were well done and well written. The most popular modern fantasy writer is not exactly the greatest writer in the world but she wrote excellent and readable books anyway that were clearly inspired by the classics and Tolkien. JK Rowling especially showed her Tolkien influence in the final book. Terry Pratchett is probably too old to be considered modern by LHoD definition but his inspiration was clearly Tolkien, Fritz Leiber (Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser), Robert E. Howard (Conan) and other older sources. Part of this is where is the line drawn? What is modern and what is now the period the was post Tolkien (let’s say Sword of Shannara forward?) I am not sure if it is fair to say we are in a new age of fantasy. I saw a distinct change in Sci-Fi in the 80s but Fantasy still appears to be mainly Tolkien influenced. Even where it is filtered through D&D. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/31 "2009-02-06T14:28:19Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Aside from the way their Orcs look, how so? Uhm. Warcraft I was originally Warhammer. You didn’t know? Seriously. I forget the exact order of things, but I think it was a license that they either couldn’t get or didn’t want to pay for or lost. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/32 "2009-02-06T14:31:39Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > Nope. > > It’s moot, at this point - so much has been borrowed straight from mythology, and so few of the creatures resemble their original forms (Gnolls, for instance, have stopped being the gnome/troll crossbreeds he originally borrowed from Lord Dunsanay, and have become hyena-men). > > I don’t believe the creatures have been sourced outside of the original books. Yeah. Although it is still a pastiche of fantasy tropes, D&D has by now become its own genre, with its own tropes. What has been borrowed has had the serial numbers so thoroughly filed off by this point, that it is difficult – if not irrelevant – to identify where it was swiped from. However it is probably worth pointing out that, while Tolkien was a heavy influence on Gygax, that was not his _primary_ influence. Moorcock and Leiber and Howard influenced D&D _much_ more than Tolkien. (although Moorcock’s Elric is somewhat of a counterreaction to Tolkien…). ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/33 "2009-02-06T15:20:37Z")
> [@Hunter\_Hawk](#): > > The early D&D rulebooks provided a sample list of books that Gygax et al. had stolen ideas from; is that list no longer included in the current editions? Yes it did: the list of “inspirational reading” that was Appendix N of the _Dungeon Master’s Guide_. You can see the list [here](http://www.geocities.com/rgfdfaq/sources.html), along with the literary sources for a whole bunch of D&D concepts. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/34 "2009-02-06T15:31:23Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Yeah. Although it is still a pastiche of fantasy tropes, D&D has by now become its own genre, with its own tropes. What has been borrowed has had the serial numbers so thoroughly filed off by this point, that it is difficult – if not irrelevant – to identify where it was swiped from. > > However it is probably worth pointing out that, while Tolkien was a heavy influence on Gygax, that was not his _primary_ influence. Moorcock and Leiber and Howard influenced D&D _much_ more than Tolkien. (although Moorcock’s Elric is somewhat of a counterreaction to Tolkien…). But Gygax did not create D&D by himself. He had a partner way back then, Dave Arneson. Between them they used Tolkien as the framework to hang the main races and major monsters not from mythology. The Elves in their 3 types, Half-Elves, Halflings were called Hobbits originally, Dwarves, Humans and ½ Orcs. The Ranger was pulled directly from Tolkien. The game was most inspired by Tolkien. Actually Moorcock had the least influence of the big names in fantasy that you mentioned. The magic spell system was pulled from another source entirely, Jack Vance. The original game had far fewer monsters and these included Ents, Orc like Goblins, Balrogs, Wights and Wraiths for a reason. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/35 "2009-02-06T15:52:06Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > I see a lot of modern pulp fantasy is derived mostly from D&D. So in regards to largely inferior modern fantasy I think \*\*Left Hand of Dorkness \*\*is possibly correct. The better written and more thoughtful fantasy is still clearly inspired by Tolkien and classic sources like legends, myths and the like. This is too simple a distinction. Mieville’s stuff has been mentioned above, and is generally well-regarded, and clearly and obviously game-inspired. Sometimes this works to its detrimentL the first portion of IRON COUNCIL reads like a log of a campaign or even a computer RPG. At one point the protagonists walk into a village and you can practically see the little exclamation point over the head of the chief before he sends them on a mission. But I don’t think the bizarre high-intensity inventiveness of the world (the scabmettlers, the mosquito women, the revolt of the automatons, some of the extensions of golem technology…) would have been possible for someone who worked conscientiously from mythological sources rather than paging through the FIEND FOLIO. There’s been a strand of gamer-related and game-sourced fiction for quite a while, ranging widely in quality: George RR Martin’s early WILD CARDS books were pretty good, though they fell off in quality quickly, and I’ve heard good things about Steve Brust’s Dragaera series, though I’ve only read the first. But then you have Ray Feists’s stuff, and a lot of escapees from the TSR novel factory. One question here is how much credit Gygax should get for the entire RPG phenomenon: while on the one hand his ideas gave form to a lot that came after, there was a lot of creativity from a lot of different sources that shaped the world pretty quickly after he arrived on the scene. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/36 "2009-02-06T15:52:29Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > But Gygax did not create D&D by himself. He had a partner way back then, Dave Arneson. Between them they used Tolkien as the framework to hang the main races and major monsters not from mythology. The Elves in their 3 types, Half-Elves, Halflings were called Hobbits originally, Dwarves, Humans and ½ Orcs. The Ranger was pulled directly from Tolkien. The game was most inspired by Tolkien. Actually Moorcock had the least influence of the big names in fantasy that you mentioned. The magic spell system was pulled from another source entirely, Jack Vance. The original game had far fewer monsters and these included Ents, Orc like Goblins, Balrogs, Wights and Wraiths for a reason. It is my understanding that Gygax was not the one to throw in the Tolkienisms. It was Arneson and – apparently – the players who wanted to be elves, hobbits, dwarves, and finally half-elves. One of Gygax’s former players posts over on [RPG.net](http://RPG.net) under the moniker “Old Geezer”, and has related or taken credit for the origins of various of these. He’s apparently the one who got half-elves into circulation. Most importantly, though, what you DO in D&D was not at all from Tolkien. The _trappings_ are Tolkienish, but references to things such as “band of psychopathic killers who survive on graverobbing, occasionally finding old tombs inhabited by other creatures and murdering them, and once in awhile finding something like a magic sword in one of the tombs” are clearly derived more from Leiber and Howard (filtered through Gygax) than from Tolkien. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/37 "2009-02-06T15:55:44Z")
Well to be fair, Gygax seems to be the largest influence on Paolini, Pern notwithstanding. Whether that’s for good or ill I’ll leave… awww screw it. Gygax wrote some nice games and the total feel, especially the artwork, for AD+D 1st edition was artistic in itself. But modern fantasy that’s influenced by him has a bit too much of a “game”-like feel … awww screw it again. Gygax influenced fantasy **SUCKS** : derivative of a derivative without redeeming features. But it’s better than the MMORPG-influence stuff that’s likely to come out soon, as others have said (unless they have a good framing story behind it such as a Great Game-like clash of the gods, which will make the endless wars over the same territory somewhat believable.) ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/38 "2009-02-06T16:09:05Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > It is my understanding that Gygax was not the one to throw in the Tolkienisms. It was Arneson and – apparently – the players who wanted to be elves, hobbits, dwarves, and finally half-elves. > > One of Gygax’s former players posts over on [RPG.net](http://RPG.net) under the moniker “Old Geezer”, and has related or taken credit for the origins of various of these. He’s apparently the one who got half-elves into circulation. > > Most importantly, though, what you DO in D&D was not at all from Tolkien. The _trappings_ are Tolkienish, but references to things such as “band of psychopathic killers who survive on graverobbing, occasionally finding old tombs inhabited by other creatures and murdering them, and once in awhile finding something like a magic sword in one of the tombs” are clearly derived more from Leiber and Howard (filtered through Gygax) than from Tolkien. I don’t think your post and mine disagree at all. Though I would be careful of trusting this “Old Geezer” guy. You have no way to know how much he is just spinning his own tall tales. Lieber & Howard were clearly big influences. I only objected to Moorcock who was at best a minor influence on D&D. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/39 "2009-02-06T16:29:11Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > I don’t think your post and mine disagree at all. Though I would be careful of trusting this “Old Geezer” guy. You have no way to know how much he is just spinning his own tall tales. Although I’ve never met the OG, people I know (and believe) have confirmed he was one of the original Gygax & Arneson crew, via meetings at conventions and such. And Gygax himself ranted – and I use that term deliberately – against the assumption that D&D was “most” inspired by Tolkien. The similarities between D&D action and Tolkien action are superficial, when compared to, say, Lankhmar or Conan or even Dying Earth. Fafhrd and the Mouser _are_ exactly what Gygax intended D&D adventurers to be and to do. So the argument trend in this thread that any Gygax influence on fantasy is, in fact, Tolkien influence on fantasy is, I think, incorrect. Tolkien influenced Gygax and a lot of modern fantasy, to be sure. This is why we keep seeing the trilogy of books, quests for McGuffins, elves &tc. in books. But the modern fantasy books referenced in the OP are decidedly _not_ Tolkien-inspired, but rather inspired by _others_ of Gygax’s sources. And, because they are from those other sources, those books seem _more_ like D&D and gaming in general – because those sources were a stronger influence on what you actually DO in an RPG. (and I’d agree that Moorcock was a minor influence on D&D; only the alignment system, really. but of course, Moorcock was (negatively) influenced by Tolkien, so I’d just chalk that one up to backhanded “Tolkien influence”, anyway.) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/40 "2009-02-06T17:34:25Z")
I think there’s a distinction people are missing. Gygax may not have created the elements of modern fantasy but he was a major figure in popularizing them. These elements predated him and obviously would still have existed without him but they would not be as commonly known as they are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653.md?page=3)