# Is Gary Gygax the father of modern fantasy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 6, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653 "2009-02-06T01:38:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/61 "2009-10-27T01:46:17Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > I read _Lies of Locke Lamora_ a while back now and did not enjoy it. However I just finished _The Name of the Wind_ and my only complaint is that the second novel is not available until next year. This was a excellent book **Daniel**. Thank you for recommending it. I thought _Lies of Locke Lamora_ had potential, but never lived up to it. I did read the second one, but am doubtful that I will read the third. I have the same complaint regarding _The Name Of The Wind_ as you do. I begin to fear that that trilogy won’t ever finish. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/62 "2009-10-27T04:17:09Z")
Gygax and Arneson were heavily influential if not inventive of fantasy role playing. Early editions of the D & D books and The Strategic Review and The Dragon were explicit that they borrowed ideas from Tolkien, Leiber, Howard, Burroughs, Moorcock and many others. Explicit credit was more heavily given to Leiber, Howard and Burroughs, but some also given to Tolkien. Leiber’s stuff was quite good, they even got him to do a story for The Dragon (do I remember that correctly?) They were (IIRC) very good stories. In my opinion, Gygax did not give adequate props to Tolkien for fear of litigation. They renamed the Hobbits into “Halflings” and Ents into “Treants” for the later versions. Tolkien did more work on fantasy for the modern age (1917-1973 up until he died) than anyone else by a long, long way. And he knew what he was doing, having studied old English, pagan and medieval romance than anyone else alive including C.S. Lewis. The OP question, yes, Tolkien is the father of modern fantasy and has a better claim to it than anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crowbar_of_Irony_3)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/63 "2009-10-27T09:10:43Z")
Maybe the father of modern fantasy computer games and fantasy-based games (Warhammer, MTG and etc), but for novels, I don’t think so. First, D&D does not represent any mainstream fantasy novels (besides Dying Earth) - there are more Tolkien rip off than stories where the mage is called ‘Magic User’. Second, the worlds of D&D only became novelized when Forgotten Realms are out, and I think that is during the times of AD&D. But D&D did inspire lots of fantasy RPGs - Dragon Warriors (the pen and paper), Tunnels and Trolls, Call of Cthulhu, Pendragon, Fighting Fantasy etc. I’m not sure if Final Fantasy was inspired by D&D tho. ETA: Sorry, somehow my mind switch Gary out for D&D. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/64 "2009-10-27T10:04:31Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > … the tone and substance of how people actually play comes more from the pulp style of … Burroughs: tough guys wandering around and killing stuff for fun and profit. … Best campaign we ever played was based on Burroughs’ _Naked Lun_… wait, wrong Burroughs, right? :smack: 😃 CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/65 "2009-10-27T10:24:19Z")
> [@CrazyChop](#): > > I’m not sure if Final Fantasy was inspired by D&D tho. More than inspired by…the first one was pretty much an unauthorized D&D game - to the point that several monsters had name-changes (and one had its sprite changed - the [Evil Eye](http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Evil_Eye_%28Final_Fantasy%29) started as a Beholder) to avoid problems with TSR. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/66 "2009-10-27T10:33:24Z")
Just a reminder to everyone that this is a resurrected thread, without any brains, so replying to old posts may not produce conversation with those authors. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/67 "2009-10-27T15:36:32Z")
According to scholarly sources\*, Gygax actually hated JRRT. He said something along the lines of,“I wish I could strangle that Frodo.” So if you’re going to draw a connection here, you might want to focus on Arneson. \*One of the _Uncle John’s Bathroom Reader_ books. What, that isn’t scholarly enough for you? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/68 "2009-10-27T22:48:04Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > I read _Lies of Locke Lamora_ a while back now and did not enjoy it. However I just finished _The Name of the Wind_ and my only complaint is that the second novel is not available until next year. This was a excellent book **Daniel**. Thank you for recommending it. Glad you liked Name of the Wind, and sorry you didn’t like Locke Lamora! Both books were right up my alley, but de gustibus and all :). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/69 "2009-10-27T23:05:21Z")
[A Brief Tribute.](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0536.html) ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/70 "2009-10-28T14:52:35Z")
Jack Vance was the greatest influence on Gary Gygax and the creation of Dungeons & Dragons, as Gygax himself makes clear in [this article.](http://www.dyingearth.com/files/GARY%20GYGAX%20JACK%20VANCE.pdf) (PDF file) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/71 "2014-07-14T12:27:04Z")
Bumping this five-year-old thread because [there’s a very interesting article](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/14/books/dungeons-dragons-has-influenced-a-generation-of-writers.html?_r=1&module=ArrowsNav&contentCollection=Books&action=keypress®ion=FixedLeft&pgtype=article) on authors who were influenced by Dungeons and Dragons. Turns out its influence goes beyond modern fantasy–there’s even a major journalist who considers it a pivotal influence on his nonfiction. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/72 "2014-07-14T14:03:48Z")
Heh, someone kept their blue box dice. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/73 "2014-07-14T15:43:49Z")
I accept the given that some authors state outright that they were influenced by Gygax. What is the definition of “influence”? Does it vary from author to author? What defining characteristics do stories influenced by face to face RPGs typically have? (How can I tell in someones writing that they may have played RPGs?) The _Conan_ books and stories seemed to have stand alone plots, with the hero showing that nearly any problem can be solved with enough courage and a good sword arm. He looted tombs just 'cause… ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/74 "2014-07-14T16:30:31Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I accept the given that some authors state outright that they were influenced by Gygax. > > What is the definition of “influence”? Does it vary from author to author? > > What defining characteristics do stories influenced by face to face RPGs typically have? (How can I tell in someones writing that they may have played RPGs?) I don’t know that I have an interesting definition of influence. Stories influenced by RPGs, specifically D&D, might have some or all of the following features: -Prominent magic useable in action sequences by the main characters (as opposed to Fafhrd and Conan, where magic is almost always villainous, or Tolkien, where it’s epic, not combat). -Ensemble cast of characters with a variety of skills, often unique skills. -Clearly defined magical systems (compared to mythical magic), more like science than mysticism. -Wide variety of monsters, some of which are not derived from mythology. -Emphasis on individual action over military action. THis is off the top of my head, and obviously RPGs aren’t the only inspiration for such stuff. I know that it’s fairly common to be reading a work of fantasy and to take a break to check the author’s note, where I’ll find that the author worked in the computer game industry before becoming a full-fledged author; some books just have that feel. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/75 "2014-07-14T17:55:05Z")
I can see the point the OP is making (after five years of thoughtful consideration). Gygax didn’t invent the fantasy genre. But he probably was a major factor in moving a lot of people from readers into authors. There’s a major leap from being a consumer to being a creator. A person could read hundreds of books without making the leap to writing. But RPG’s can serve a gateway to the creative side. You’re now controlling the actions of the characters and some people are going to think “If I can do this at the table, I can put it down on paper.” ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653/76 "2014-07-14T19:18:08Z")
I see the point, though I feel like it’s a bit of a “No True Scotsman” sort of argument to a large extent. There’s certainly a large corelation between fantasy authors and authors who have played table top roleplaying games. But there’s probably also a large corelation between fantasy authors and authors who are fans of Star Wars, Doctor Who, Star Trek, etc. That is to say, they’re nerds. However, I would imagine that anyone who is a _good_ writer, has a diverse set of influences and many of those probably outshine their RPG influences. It’s the bad writers who take their RPG character and a scenario they played once, and try to turn it into a book. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gary-gygax-the-father-of-modern-fantasy/484653.md?page=3)