# Is George Bush Jr. a Coward Who Lacks a Sense of Shame? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 22, 2004, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-bush-jr-a-coward-who-lacks-a-sense-of-shame/260938 "2004-08-22T03:54:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-bush-jr-a-coward-who-lacks-a-sense-of-shame/260938/1 "2004-08-22T03:54:00Z")
Joshua Micah Marshall asserts that the sitting President is [a coward who truly lacks shame.](http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_08_15.php#003302). > [@](#): > > I don’t say he’s a coward because he kept himself out of Vietnam three decades ago. I know no end of men of that age who in one fashion or another made sure they didn’t end up in Indochina in those days. (I quickly ran through both hands counting guys I talk to on a regular basis.) And they include many of the most admirable people I know. > > He’s a coward because he has other people smear good men without taking any responsibility, without owning up to it or standing behind it. And when someone takes it to him and puts him on the spot to defend his actions – as McCain does in [this spot](http://www.johnkerry.com/petition/oldtricks.php) – he’s literally speechless. Like I say, a coward. On JM Marshall’s first point, I’m not sure. It’s one thing to refuse to fight in a war you believe is deeply misguided – reasonable opinions differ on whether unjust laws should be obeyed. It’s quite another to believe wholeheartedly in a war - but to dodge it so that somebody else’s precious skin is threatened. In common political discourse these characters --Bush, Cheney and Gingrich are 3 examples-- are called Chicken Hawks. But perhaps “coward” is a better characterization. Here I must stress that every American deserves freedom of speech-- even cowards. On Mr. Marshall’s second point, it should be noted that all Presidents make use of proxies: traditionally the Vice President uses direct language and over-broad characterizations while the President remains above the fray. But when direct language blurs into character assassination and over-broad language become outright falsehood, then a true statesman --or even a halfway decent human being-- should either impose a limit on the dishonesty or stand up and endorse the charges that are being made. Discuss. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-bush-jr-a-coward-who-lacks-a-sense-of-shame/260938/2 "2004-08-22T03:56:17Z")
A good place to start when discussing broad, complicated concepts is [a Dictionary](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=coward). (For a more philosophical approach, skim down [this page](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-ethics-politics/), to see Plato’s take on the subject.) A _coward_ is, "One who shows ignoble fear in the face of danger or pain. …proceeding from, or expressive of, base fear or timidity. This contrasts with a _dastard_ who is “…a sneaky, cowardly evildoer”. Usage of the word _craven_ (“Characterized by abject fear; cowardly.”) suggests the proper tone: “Is it fit this soldier keep his oath? Fluellen. He is a craven and a villain else.” --Shakespeare. Traditional cowards let their sense of fear override their morality. Now at times one can spot some fear in The President’s eyes: the clip above and the disquieting one with [The Pet Goat](http://www.mypetgoat.com/book.htm) are 2 examples, although Bush’s facial expressions also project a sense of confusion. But mostly I think W is operating out of political calculation. His gut-level fear manifests itself when he is called into account (by McCain, for example) or perhaps when he is questioning the propriety of his decisions (when he decided to go on with the grade school photo op when the country was under attack). But this fear doesn’t seem to be a distinguishing and dominating characteristic of the sitting President’s behavior, so perhaps the “Coward” tag can and should be improved upon. Still, the distinctions between “Coward”, “Dastard” and “Craven” (for example) are thin. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-bush-jr-a-coward-who-lacks-a-sense-of-shame/260938/3 "2004-08-22T03:56:29Z")
There’s no such person as George Bush, Jr. Discuss. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-bush-jr-a-coward-who-lacks-a-sense-of-shame/260938/4 "2004-08-22T04:01:11Z")
Yeah, thats it! What? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-bush-jr-a-coward-who-lacks-a-sense-of-shame/260938/5 "2004-08-22T04:05:21Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > There’s no such person as George Bush, Jr. Discuss. There’s no such person as **milroyj** either, but that doesn’t mean you are not a sniveling weasel. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-bush-jr-a-coward-who-lacks-a-sense-of-shame/260938/6 "2004-08-22T04:09:54Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > There’s no such person as **milroyj** either, but that doesn’t mean you are not a sniveling weasel. How do you know I’m not a ferret, instead? For a message board striving to fight ignorance, threads about “George Bush Jr.” are particularly lame. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-bush-jr-a-coward-who-lacks-a-sense-of-shame/260938/7 "2004-08-22T04:13:19Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > There’s no such person as George Bush, Jr. Discuss. Not bad, milroyj, not bad. [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com): 7 entries found for Junior. 1. Abbr. Jr. Used to distinguish a son from his father when they have the same given name. * * * I confess that I have not looked at the sitting President’s birth certificate but according to [this biography](http://www.famoustexans.com/georgewbush.htm) his childhood nickname was, “Junior”. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-bush-jr-a-coward-who-lacks-a-sense-of-shame/260938/8 "2004-08-22T04:17:02Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > How do you know I’m not a ferret, instead? Clearly, you are both. You have nothing cogent to add to the discussion. so you pick nits rather than expose your own ignorance. Nice try, stoat-boy, we know what you are. Now git. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-bush-jr-a-coward-who-lacks-a-sense-of-shame/260938/9 "2004-08-22T04:17:16Z")
How would you recommend that I clearly distinguish President GHW Bush, who served in WWII, from his son, the sitting President? I could say George W Bush, I suppose, but I really would like to draw a bright line between the 2 Presidents when discussing cowardice. (Also, I quite frankly don’t think the Jr. suffix is a big deal: my brother has it, for example). ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-bush-jr-a-coward-who-lacks-a-sense-of-shame/260938/10 "2004-08-22T04:21:59Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > Not bad, milroyj, not bad. > > [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com): > 7 entries found for Junior. > > 1. Abbr. Jr. Used to distinguish a son from his father when they have the same given name. Thanks for the dictionary lesson, but you’re still wrong. Former President George HW Bush’s son is President George W Bush, no junior involved. Note well, when Jenna or Barbara gets elected, she won’t be a Jr. either. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-bush-jr-a-coward-who-lacks-a-sense-of-shame/260938/11 "2004-08-22T04:28:43Z")
And once again **milroyj** demonstrates a complete inability to make a meaningful contribution on the issues. In other news, sun sets in west. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-bush-jr-a-coward-who-lacks-a-sense-of-shame/260938/12 "2004-08-22T04:30:53Z")
Give it up, guys, friend **Milroyj** has got you dead to rights! The lowlife creep you are discussing is not, repeat, _not_ named George W. Bush, Jr. There’s no getting around that, that is an irrefutable point. All our cites, facts, and logic are as nothing, dashed into atoms and shards by this single, cogent, and inescapable reality: we have all been outsmarted by **milroyj** Some of you probably won’t be able to handle this crushing defeat. Myself, I’m a bit older, I’ve had dreams dashed before (two words: Fran Tarkenton), I’ll probably just drink. Hey, maybe _that’s_ why no one remembers seeing GeeDubya (Praise the Leader!) during his guard time! When asked about GeeDubya _Jr._, and they just snickered behind thier hands and said “Never heard of him, not seen at this base!” ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-bush-jr-a-coward-who-lacks-a-sense-of-shame/260938/13 "2004-08-22T04:33:12Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > And once again **milroyj** demonstrates a complete inability to make a meaningful contribution on the issues. > > In other news, sun sets in west. Fucko off, dude. What meaningful contribution has the OP made? Calling the President “Jr.”? Well, that’s helpfull. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-bush-jr-a-coward-who-lacks-a-sense-of-shame/260938/14 "2004-08-22T04:36:09Z")
I wish to distinguish the son from the father when they have the same given name (minus a single initial admittedly). Please direct me on how I should do so. (Also: I couldn’t find any reference on google regarding the sitting President’s birth certificate. So **milroyj** ’s claim remains an assertion without evidence. I _did_ find [an assertion from a BBC journalist](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3355319.stm) that the sitting President hates the description. But I can’t see how it is inaccurate, at the very least). ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-bush-jr-a-coward-who-lacks-a-sense-of-shame/260938/15 "2004-08-22T04:36:26Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Some of you probably won’t be able to handle this crushing defeat. Myself, I’m a bit older, I’ve had dreams dashed before (two words: Fran Tarkenton), I’ll probably just drink. No need to trouble yourself, just leave the drinking to me. It’s what I do best, really. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-bush-jr-a-coward-who-lacks-a-sense-of-shame/260938/16 "2004-08-22T04:39:57Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > I wish to distinguish the son from the father when they have the same given name (minus a single initial admittedly). Please direct me on how I should do so. > > (Also: I couldn’t find any reference on google regarding the sitting President’s birth certificate. So **milroyj** ’s claim remains an assertion without evidence. I _did_ find [an assertion from a BBC journalist](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3355319.stm) that the sitting President hates the description. But I can’t see how it is inaccurate, at the very least). The President and his father do not share the same name, so the Jr. thing is inappropriate. Why are you trying to stir shit up where it’s not warranted? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-bush-jr-a-coward-who-lacks-a-sense-of-shame/260938/17 "2004-08-22T04:40:30Z")
Do you know any politician that has a sense of shame? They’re all shameless, every single one of them. They take money from special interests, they don’t vote based upon what their constituents want, they attack their opponents with relish on everything they can think of, and they write off their little foibles as “youthful indiscretions” or something similar. As for cowardice, they’re both cowards. They all are. How are the “Swift Boat Veterans For Truth” any different than [moveon.org](http://moveon.org)? Sorry, both do “unsolicited” attack ads, and both are “disavowed” by the candidates they favor. As if it could be expected that either of them would have them stop. Right. You would have a better chance of getting Rush Limbaugh to admit that he’s a moron. Rather than having someone else do the attacking, they should just go toe to toe, because frankly speaking there are very few positives for either of them to run on, so if they’re going to attack each other they should just dive right in and get mud on their hands. Politics is a scummy business. At this level it achieves moral reprehensibility. That’s the way it is, that’s the way it shall be, so why don’t we just drop the pretenses and let them have at it instead of hiding behind their supporters? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-bush-jr-a-coward-who-lacks-a-sense-of-shame/260938/18 "2004-08-22T04:42:31Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Why are you trying to stir shit up where it’s not warranted? Why indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-bush-jr-a-coward-who-lacks-a-sense-of-shame/260938/19 "2004-08-22T04:47:44Z")
Weirdly, Miss Manners (1982) seems to believe that when the eldest with a given name dies, everyone “moves up a notch” [http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=53990](http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=53990) So according to that rule, the sitting President becomes George Bush Sr. after the former President dies. That doesn’t sound right. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-bush-jr-a-coward-who-lacks-a-sense-of-shame/260938/20 "2004-08-22T04:54:28Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > Weirdly, Miss Manners (1982) seems to believe that when the eldest with a given name dies, everyone “moves up a notch” > > [http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=53990](http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=53990) > > So according to that rule, the sitting President becomes George Bush Sr. after the former President dies. > > That doesn’t sound right. Except they don’t have the same name! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-bush-jr-a-coward-who-lacks-a-sense-of-shame/260938.md?page=2)