# Is George W. Bush dumb? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 2, 2007, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-w-bush-dumb/414168 "2007-08-02T19:04:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-w-bush-dumb/414168/81 "2007-08-03T01:23:20Z")
[QUOTE=Spit] … [/QUOTE] Now there’s a screen name I haven’t seen in years. In case no one’s said welcome back yet, welcome back. /Hijack ---
**Author:** ![I\_m\_Ron\_Burgundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9fc29f/32.png) [@I\_m\_Ron\_Burgundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_m_Ron_Burgundy)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-w-bush-dumb/414168/82 "2007-08-03T01:39:14Z")
Citing his merits doesn’t prove much to me. There are idiots everywhere, there are idiots with good grades and bad, self-made rich idiots, poor idiots, smart-looking idiots, idiot doctors, yada yada yada. He was a pilot, he was an Ivy League graduate, and yet he was also a drug user and an alcoholic. He’s the president, for chrissakes. Whether he’s quantifiable dumb or not raises the question as to whether there’s an accurate way to measure stupidity. IMO there’s not. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-w-bush-dumb/414168/83 "2007-08-03T03:00:07Z")
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn] That video pretty much speaks for itself- presenile dementia- too funny! But maybe its opposite with the drugs- he was on them then, but not on them now 😛 [/QUOTE] Actually… That 1994 clip kind of looks like someone who’s a little coked up… Maybe he just stopped taking the cocaine, and now he’s unable to focus. Maybe he was self-medicating ADD. As for his intelligence - all the evidence points to an IQ in the 120-130 range. Not particularly high, but not stupid. Slightly above average for a college grad, about average for a Yale grad, reasonably above average against the general population, but maybe below the average of the kinds of people that make it to the highest levels of power. > [@Wee Bairn](#): > > Yeah, there’s no chance that being GB’s son had any role in him getting into Harvard, and a degree from Harvard, and as for how he became a pilot, not on merit- > > Competition for the few openings in the National Guard was intense, and there was a waiting list of 100,000 nationally at the time. Bush took the Air Force officer and pilot qualification tests on January 17, 1968. He scored 25%, the lowest possible passing grade on the pilot aptitude portion. On his application form, he listed his “background qualifications” as “none.” But despite the waiting list, his low score and his lack of qualifications, Bush was given a highly-coveted spot and was sworn in on May 27 for a six-year commitment, taking a solemn oath to protect and defend the U.S. Constitution and the United States of America. I debunked this thoroughly a few years ago. The ‘25% on his pilot aptitude test!’ is often trotted out as an example of Bush being stupid and/or strings having been pulled to get him into fighter jets when his test scores wouldn’t warrant it. But it’s just not true. As some background, the test in question is the [Air Force Officer Qualification Test](http://www.baseops.net/afoqt/), or AFOQT. The test is broken down into sections: Pilot (aircraft knowledge) Navigator (spatial relationships, map reading, etc) Academic Aptitude Verbal Quantitative (Math). People who want to be aviators have to hit a minimum score on various areas. For a pilot, these are the requirements: [ul] [li]Pilot score of 25[/li][li]Navigator score of 10[/li][li]Combined Pilot and Navigator score of 50[/li][li]Verbal score of 15[/li][li]Quantitative score of 10[/li][li]Academic score has no minimum[/li][/ul] If you don’t make pilot, you can still be a navigator, and these are the requirements: Navigator Requirements [ul] [li]Pilot score of 10[/li][li]Navigator score of 25[/li][li]Combined Pilot and Navigator score of 50[/li][li]Verbal score of 15[/li][li]Quantitative score of 10[/li][li]Academic score has no minimum[/li][/ul] [Here’s a copy of Bush’s actual results of his AFOQT](http://www.thesyndrome.com/archives/3-Grade_Determination.pdf): Bush score: [ul] [li]Pilot score of 25[/li][li]Navigator score of 50[/li][li]Combined Pilot and Navigator score of 75[/li][li]Verbal score of 85[/li][li]Quantitative score of 65[/li][/ul] There is another section of the test labeled “Officer Quality”, I presume which measures qualities required to be an Officer in the Air Force. Bush scored 95% on this part of the test. You’ll note that only the ‘Pilot’ score even touches the minimum requirement, and all his other scores are WAY above the required minimums. After more researching, it turns out that the ‘pilot’ portion of the exam deals with prior knowledge of aircraft systems, flight operations, etc. It’s the kind of thing that going through air cadets or air force ROTC can prepare you for (or having a Private Pilot’s License). Bush had no previous flying experience, and yet he still managed to make the minimum for pilot. On every other measure, Bush was way over the minimum requirements. From the first link above, it says that the average scores are in the 40’s, and that you should try to make 70 if you want to be a pilot today (I’m sure the requirement would have been lower during Vietnam). Bush’s average was 64. Add to that his degree from Yale, and you can see that he almost certainly qualified for fighter pilot on his own merits. And BTW, people didn’t get put in F-102’s if they weren’t qualified or had the aptitude for it, because the thing would kill you. It does no good for the career of an administrator if he approves a non-worthy person for pilot duty because his dad is powerful, only to get him killed. And anyway, if they just wanted to park him for the Vietnam war to please daddy, they could have made him a navigator. He easily beat the requirements for that in every category. That leads me to believe that he made pilot on his own merits (plus no doubt the natural class favoritism that existed then - a Yale boy had a leg up on the guy with a degree from State U.) ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-w-bush-dumb/414168/84 "2007-08-03T03:07:58Z")
The differences in speech between Bush the president and Bush the governor is shocking. Bush the governor could debate and use multisyllabic words with no problems and had a fast flowing style. Watching Bush the president give a speech is like watching a nervous seventh grader in speech class – constantly stuttering, awkward pauses, trouble with simple phrases, and uncomfortable body language. I feel embarassed for him. Nervousness can’t be the main factor – he gave speeches and participated in debates in front of millions of people in Texas. If he was nervous as president with the world wide attention, don’t you think he’d get used to it after all these years? Another factor is that the arguments and logic he uses has also degraded severely between governor/president. Watch debates when he was governor – disagree with his ideas all you want, but the way he explains himself and arrives at his conclusions are far more sophisticated than anything I’ve heard out of his mouth as president, especially in a debate format. Is it possible he has been going through the early stages of some sort of neurodegenerative disease? Or has his cowboy shtick that his handlers made up for the 2000 race simply become a part of his public persona that he can’t discard? I’ve read anecdotes from insiders who claim Bush is more coherent in private. It’s just all so bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-w-bush-dumb/414168/85 "2007-08-03T03:31:38Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] As for his intelligence - all the evidence points to an IQ in the 120-130 range. [/QUOTE] In nowhere but your fantasy world is George W. Bush two standard deviations above the mean in IQ. Why some people wanted to hitch their wagon to Bush was ever beyond me. Why some can’t unhitch it as he gallops over the cliff is even less fathomable. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-w-bush-dumb/414168/86 "2007-08-03T03:50:15Z")
I’m sorry for the double post, but I’m just so flummoxed that I’m wondering if anyone else really believes that there is any way in the world that Bush is among the top 5% of the population in IQ. I understand that there could be reasonable disagreement about whether Bush is stupid or not, intellectually speaking. But nobody has suggested in seriousness that he is retarded (as in having an IQ of two standard deviations below the mean). Can anyone else really say that they think he is gifted? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-w-bush-dumb/414168/87 "2007-08-03T04:23:57Z")
120 is gifted? Since when? It’s ‘above average’. 130 is ‘gifted’, and represents the 98th percentile. But that’s of the overall population. Among college grads, the median IQ is about 110-115. So Bush is maybe a little above average for a typical college grad. And that doesn’t make him a genius. His fighter pilot squadron mates considered him ‘the smart one’. He managed to become a Governor and President, and win second terms in each position. I’m no fan of Bush. I’ve been off his bandwagon for quite some time. But I think a reasonable look at the facts would indicate that Bush is a pretty bright guy. Or was. He’s not a genius. Just a guy who’s pretty sharp. Watch that clip of him from 1994. It’s like watching a different person. And he seems pretty darned smart. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-w-bush-dumb/414168/88 "2007-08-03T05:18:12Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] Watch that clip of him from 1994. It’s like watching a different person. [/QUOTE] Why is it like watching a different person? Seriously, I’ve never seen anyone change their speaking style (for the worse) so drastically in the space of a few years without some sort of medical cause. But he’s supposedly in perfect health. I don’t really buy the drugs explanation and my previous theory, basically that being president just makes him nervous doesn’t make a lot of sense either, one would’ve expected him to get better at dealing with a simple confidence problem over seven years. Has anyone thats had close contact with him during his years as governor and then as president ever commented on this? Did the change extend to his private persona as well? ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-w-bush-dumb/414168/89 "2007-08-03T10:04:18Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] What do you mean he’s never traveled abroad? He left Texas a number of times! 😃 [/QUOTE] Probably raised the average intelligence in Texas when he left and lowered it everywhere he went. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-w-bush-dumb/414168/90 "2007-08-03T10:43:16Z")
Sure he is a dreadful public speaker. That in and of itself is not an indicator of a lack of intelligence. I wonder if his hesitancy and use of simple words in his presidential (as opposed to his governtorial) years reflects being gun-shy from having been beaten up so much in the media? A fear of making a mistake? Perhaps the problem is one of confidence, not intelligence. Of course that is even more creepy, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-w-bush-dumb/414168/91 "2007-08-03T11:33:59Z")
I’d say slightly below average. Getting an MBA from Harvard can either mean you’re smart or you have connections. I suspect the latter. You can’t tell much from his college grades. Wealthy kids just don’t give a crap what their grades are. Besides being not particularly bright, he is of extraordinarily lazy intellect. He has an agenda and has no use for facts that don’t support it. I think his substance abuse was far more extensive that what has come to light so far. A colleague of mine that has been in AA for many years states without hesitation that Bush looks very much like a “dry drunk”. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-w-bush-dumb/414168/92 "2007-08-03T12:08:26Z")
I’d say he’s normal, maybe just a little above average since he has a great educational pedigree. But I don’t think he’s bright. It’s not just his oratory skills. Even poor public speaker would have done a better job answering [this](http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/08/10/149259) question. I almost pity him in that clip, because I could see myself doing the same thing (I am not a great off-the-cuff speaker). But then again, I’m not planning on running for president any time soon. However, except for Clinton, I can’t think of a president known for being real bright. George Washington isn’t considered all that intelligent either by historians, but he’s the famous of all presidents. I’d be curious to see how Bush ranks with all his predecessors. I’m thinking if he didn’t come across as so stupid behind the podium, people wouldn’t be so suspicious of his intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-w-bush-dumb/414168/93 "2007-08-03T12:15:56Z")
[QUOTE=asterion] [Funny you should mention that.](http://www.geneticanomaly.com/RPG-Motivational/slides/intdump.html) [/QUOTE] I don’t get this [ONE](http://www.geneticanomaly.com/RPG-Motivational/slides/jumpercables.html). Someone please explain. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-w-bush-dumb/414168/94 "2007-08-03T12:26:34Z")
[QUOTE=Sitnam] I don’t get this [ONE](http://www.geneticanomaly.com/RPG-Motivational/slides/jumpercables.html). Someone please explain. [/QUOTE] An MMORPG is a computer game where many, many people play over the internet. Maybe you’ve heard of World of Warcraft, or Everquest? Anyway, a “wipe” is slang for your entire team being killed. Jumper cables in this instance are a specific reference to World of Warcraft, which has an item called “Goblin Jumper Cables” that can be used to shock a player back to life. Or not, as the case may be. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-w-bush-dumb/414168/95 "2007-08-03T13:03:03Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Unless that is what you do for a living. The rich take care of themselves. Stories of gentlemen’s c 's and passing those who are privileged have been around for many years. Bush could go to any school he wanted. and would have been graduated. [/QUOTE] Actually, Bush could _not_ go to any school he wanted. From a Frontline [timeline:](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/choice2000/bush/cron.html) > [@](#): > > 1970: George W. applies to University of Texas Law School and is rejected. The Bush family didn’t have quite enough pull at UT–back then. I remember Bush when he ran for governor. He impressed me as a half-bright frat boy–but he \*could \* speak in public. Shallow & irritating, of course! But not as pathetically damaged as he’s been for the last few years. Why did we need a detailed report on the Presidential Polyps? I’d be more interested in the test results from the other end. Our own [Cecil](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030411.html) has something to say about the “debunked” pilot test results. > [@](#): > > In January 1968, with the Vietnam war in full swing, Bush was due to graduate from Yale. Knowing he’d soon be eligible for the draft, he took an air force officers’ test hoping to secure a billet with the Texas Air National Guard, which would allow him to do his military service at home. Bush didn’t do particularly well on the test–on the pilot aptitude section, he scored in the 25th percentile, the lowest possible passing grade. But Bush’s father, George H.W., was then a U.S. congressman from Houston, and strings were pulled. The younger Bush vaulted to the head of a long waiting list–a year and a half long, by some estimates–and in May of '68 he was inducted into the guard. ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-w-bush-dumb/414168/96 "2007-08-03T13:11:58Z")
Also note, in the video from ten years ago where he is speaking rapdily and confidently, he still isn’t saying anything profound or uber intelligent- he’s just stating his basic position on basic issues Although he is doing a good job of it, if you look past the rapid fire delivery you can still see touches of the idiot he is now. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-w-bush-dumb/414168/97 "2007-08-03T13:42:07Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] 120 is gifted? Since when? It’s ‘above average’. 130 is ‘gifted’, [/quote] a). You said 120-130 yourself (numbers which are a complete fabrication of some fevered imagination, anyway). That’s what I was responding to. b). You are using those terms as if they are category labels, and I have no idea where you are getting them from. > [@Sam Stone](#): > > and represents the 98th percentile. But that’s of the overall population. The standard deviation of the IQ score is 15 points, and the mean is 100. That means that two standard deviations above the mean would be 130. In any normal distribution of values, about 95% of the scores will fall within two standard deviations, and about 99% will fall within three. Of course it’s the overall population. That’s why I asked if anyone else other than yourself really could believe that George Bush is in the top 5% of the population in terms of IQ (if he had a score, like you suggested he might, of 130). If you want to call it the 98th percentile, and suggest that Bush could be a member of MENSA, I don’t see how that changes the likelihood much. I’ll put that question out and see if there is anyone who will agree with you that he might be at the 98th percentile as well. > [@](#): > > Among college grads, the median IQ is about 110-115. So Bush is maybe a little above average for a typical college grad. You can consider whatever categories you want, mate. It makes no difference. It’s still a normal population. Going to college doesn’t change your IQ. > [@](#): > > And that doesn’t make him a genius. If he had IQ scores like you suggest, which again is just crazy Bush-love nonsense, he would be considered “very superior” in Terman’s or Wechsler’s labeling schemes. > [@](#): > > His fighter pilot squadron mates considered him ‘the smart one’. Wow. Did they also dream of owning rabbit farms one day, George? > [@](#): > > He managed to become a Governor and President, and win second terms in each position. And I think we can all agree how smart one really has to be to win an election. In this day and age, being smart appears to be a liability among American voters. Being beer-companionable seems more key. > [@](#): > > I’m no fan of Bush. I’ve been off his bandwagon for quite some time. BWAAAHHAAAHAAAHAAA 😃😃😃 This is **Sam Stone** writing this, correct?’ > [@](#): > > But I think a reasonable look at the facts would indicate that Bush is a pretty bright guy. Oh, man, my stomach is still hurting from the last line, and then you follow it up with this one? I think one’s opinion of “reasonable” would have to be biased by an unremitting case of Bush-love to make that statement true. Other than winning elections, and scoring modestly on standardized tests, both of which can be influenced by factors other than intellect, he has been a failed businessman and a failed leader. What else has he actually done to indicate any sort of actual intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-w-bush-dumb/414168/98 "2007-08-03T14:18:40Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] Other than winning elections, and scoring modestly on standardized tests, both of which can be influenced by factors other than intellect, he has been a failed businessman and a failed leader. What else has he actually done to indicate any sort of actual intelligence. [/QUOTE] Hey - no fair! It took him barely two days to spot a major American city had been drowned and only one more to decide that maybe someone should be doing something about it. He’s practically The Man With Two Brains. (Harpo’s and Zeppo’s probably). ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-w-bush-dumb/414168/99 "2007-08-03T14:21:22Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] a). You said 120-130 yourself (numbers which are a complete fabrication of some fevered imagination, anyway). [/QUOTE] You’re way off base here. You should actually read the whole thread. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-w-bush-dumb/414168/100 "2007-08-03T14:41:16Z")
[QUOTE=Richard Parker] You’re way off base here. You should actually read the whole thread. [/QUOTE] I have read the whole thread. **Sam Stone** suggested an IQ that would place Bush at least in the top 5% of the population, and would be considered “very superior.” I’m asking if anyone else remotely believes this is possible. How in hell is that way off base, and what have I missed, given that I have read the thread? Are you suggesting that **Sam Stone** did not in fact post that Bush may have an IQ in the 120-130 range? How is that possible? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-w-bush-dumb/414168.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-george-w-bush-dumb/414168.md?page=6)