# Is God a troll or like Nolan's "the Joker" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 15, 2014, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-a-troll-or-like-nolans-the-joker/701368 "2014-10-15T02:52:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MaverocK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@MaverocK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaverocK)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-a-troll-or-like-nolans-the-joker/701368/1 "2014-10-15T02:52:25Z")
šŸ™‚ Now please imagine everything created. But please concentrate on our emotions and on our brain. Anger, jealousy, sadness, misery, frustration, happiness, joy, pleasure, hatredā€¦ etc. Everything horrible, disgusting, pleasurable etc. are products of God. Imagine war, genocide, child abuse, rape, poverty, persecution, injustice, unfairness, suicide, addiction, mental illnesses , beating etc. Now imagine some good things: sexual pleasure the joy/happiness/pleasure that you get when you get a good grade from an exam the joy/happiness/pleasure that you get when you help someone, or help someone achieve something, or save someone the joy of playing with your good dog the joy/happiness/pleasure that you get when somebody compliments you the joy/happiness/pleasure that you get when a woman/man whom you like likes you back the joy/happiness/pleasure that you get when you are assured that you are a productive person the joy/happiness/pleasure that you get when you revenge your enemies/those whom you hate the joy/happiness/pleasure that you get when you make the world a better place for everybody and animals the joy/happiness/pleasure that you get when you see the Batman beats the Joker the joy/happiness/pleasure that you get when you see the Joker is not affected all by the Batmanā€™s beating him this list goes to infinity (I can extend this list if you would like to) Continue with bad things: The negative feeling/ā€˜state of mindā€™ that you get when you smell a decayed milk The negative feeling/ā€˜state of mindā€™ that you get when your excrement sticks to your flesh and you take shower The negative feeling/ā€˜state of mindā€™ that you get when you see people kill animals by beating The negative feeling/ā€˜state of mindā€™ that you get when you are the center of mockery The negative feeling/ā€˜state of mindā€™ that you get when you get beaten down this list too goes to infinity (I can extend this list too if you would like to) Now please notice that God is the perpetrator/engineer/writer/creator/producer of all these things šŸ™‚ I feel like heā€™s getting a good laugh at us šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-a-troll-or-like-nolans-the-joker/701368/2 "2014-10-15T02:55:09Z")
More likely God doesnā€™t exist at all, and youā€™re just reading attributes into Him in order to suit your preferred narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-a-troll-or-like-nolans-the-joker/701368/3 "2014-10-15T03:14:36Z")
The Joker is 75 years old. Christopher Nolan is only 44. ---
**Author:** ![nani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58956e/32.png) [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-a-troll-or-like-nolans-the-joker/701368/4 "2014-10-15T03:37:34Z")
I guess if you think that existing is always better than not existing, then reconciling the problem of suffering co-existing with a benevolent deity is easier. On the other hand, if you think that there are situations where it is better not to exist than to exist, then theodicy becomes a much bigger philosophical problem. Going through suffering and still maintaining hope in life is widely admired. If a person is in a terrible situation and still maintains gratitude toward a god, it is often inspiring for his/her fellow believers. And just in general, most people appreciate perseverance in the face of difficult situations, even if they agree that in some situations, not existing is better than existing. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-a-troll-or-like-nolans-the-joker/701368/5 "2014-10-15T03:40:27Z")
74 years, 5 months, 19 days to be utterly pedantic. I know my Bob Kane, but I have not the slightest idea what the OP is about. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-a-troll-or-like-nolans-the-joker/701368/6 "2014-10-15T03:47:25Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > More likely God doesnā€™t exist at allā€¦ Oh, yeah? [Hereā€™s a picture of Him](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Q-IWrDxQALE/T6Vydol8h2I/AAAAAAAABK8/b1Gr9n7B0Us/s1600/2012+053.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-a-troll-or-like-nolans-the-joker/701368/7 "2014-10-15T04:15:53Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Oh, yeah? [Hereā€™s a picture of Him](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Q-IWrDxQALE/T6Vydol8h2I/AAAAAAAABK8/b1Gr9n7B0Us/s1600/2012+053.jpg). Holy shit. Iā€¦ I guess I was wrong about there being a God. Iā€™m sorry, theists for all my snark. I just never saw the picture before. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-a-troll-or-like-nolans-the-joker/701368/8 "2014-10-15T14:14:49Z")
I believe this is a form of the classic [ā€œProblem of Evilā€](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil) philisophical argument. The problem is easily resolved for me, since Iā€™m an atheist. But all it takes to resolve the issue with theism is to propose a god that is either not omnipotent and/or not omnibenevolent. Lots of historical gods that people worshiped were not omnipotent and also assholes. I donā€™t recall how powerful Zeus was supposed to be, but the guy was a multiple rapist IIRC. The ancient Greeks didnā€™t have much of a philosophical Problem Of Evil, I imagine. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-a-troll-or-like-nolans-the-joker/701368/9 "2014-10-15T14:34:35Z")
Godā€™s also a smoker and a midnight toker. He sure donā€™t want to hurt no one. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-a-troll-or-like-nolans-the-joker/701368/10 "2014-10-15T15:00:23Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > The problem is easily resolved for me, since Iā€™m an atheist. But all it takes to resolve the issue with theism is to propose a god that is either not omnipotent and/or not omnibenevolent. Or, to forsake both of those meager alternatives, and take the third option of realizing that ā€œgoodā€ and ā€œbadā€, ā€œpleasureā€ and ā€œpainā€ are all ultimately subjective labels ultimately arising in the mind. The unenlightened would be miserable in heaven, a buddha perfectly content in hell. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-a-troll-or-like-nolans-the-joker/701368/11 "2014-10-15T15:01:08Z")
> [@74westy](#): > > Godā€™s also a smoker and a midnight toker. He sure donā€™t want to hurt no one. Our Father, who art in heaven, Maurice be thy name. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-a-troll-or-like-nolans-the-joker/701368/12 "2014-10-15T15:10:56Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Our Father, who art in heaven, Maurice be thy name. And He so Pompatused the world, that He gave his one and only son. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-a-troll-or-like-nolans-the-joker/701368/13 "2014-10-15T16:23:32Z")
And Maurice said, ā€œLet there be big olā€™ jet airliners.ā€ And there were, and they carried me to my home, and they were good. Sorry. Done now, promise. Where were we? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-a-troll-or-like-nolans-the-joker/701368/14 "2014-10-15T17:22:22Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Or, to forsake both of those meager alternatives, and take the third option of realizing that ā€œgoodā€ and ā€œbadā€, ā€œpleasureā€ and ā€œpainā€ are all ultimately subjective labels ultimately arising in the mind. The unenlightened would be miserable in heaven, a buddha perfectly content in hell. Whether the pain is subjective or not is completely irrelevant. An omnipotent omnibenevolent deity would not make a world where even the most subjective pain is possible. Whether an omnipotent omnibenevolent deity would create anything at all is another argument. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-a-troll-or-like-nolans-the-joker/701368/15 "2014-10-15T19:39:09Z")
As someone else poin out upthread, this is just a variation on the theme of the problem of evil. Frankly, the Problem of Evil strikes me as sort of the atheistā€™s version of First Cause in that it seems compelling to the person stating it, ultimately, itā€™s a well known argument and virtually any theist who is interested in participating in the sort of debate in which it will arise probably already has it resolved. Now, likely, I do think that the Problem of Evil does more or less preclude a theist like a Biblical Literalist, but if they are that, they have much simpler problems to overcome, probably things like Young Earth Creationism and Anti-Evolution views. Speaking for myself as a theist, I have no issue resolving the Problem of Evil; in fact, it seems to me that though many see the idea of a universe in which evil exists as a contradiction to an omnimax God, I think itā€™s the exact opposite. That is, the concept of good and evil is utterly meaningless in a context in which there is no choice. Itā€™s not unlike how saying how God cannot be ā€œlightā€ because darkness exists in the universe, but in a universe with no light, not only is the concept of darkness meaningless, but so is this property that has been assigned to God. In other words, good and evil are moral judgments and they can only exist in a context where moral judgment exists. For example, letā€™s take a dog and his owner. If that owner trains his dog well, the dog will behave as heā€™s trained. If heā€™s trained to be a seeing-eye dog or a rescue dog or a guard dog or attack dog or a fighter or whatever, heā€™s just following his training. Is it meaningful to judge the dog that helps people as good and the one that hurts and kills other dogs or people as bad? The dog himself lacks the tools to make a moral judgment, it was his trainer that instilled good or bad behavior into the dog, so it is the trainer that ultimately bears the moral responsibility for the behavior of the dog. It is exactly this logic that says why we canā€™t only children, mentally disabled, or animals as guilty for acts, because they lack the ability to make appropriate moral judgments. So, I think this same logic carries over to the idea behind the Problem of Evil. That is, the only way for there to not be evil is for us to lack the ability to make moral judgments, and thus, lacking the ability to make moral judgments means that we lack the ability to make moral choices. We may not be automatons, per se, but our decisions would be limited to choosing between vanilla and chocolate, but weā€™d have no ability to discern any meaningful difference in a dilemma that has moral implications. So, really, the question isnā€™t about whether God created evil or was capable of creating a universe in which there is no evil. Instead, it seems to me whether giving man the ability to make moral judgments is worth the very high cost of the existence of evil. Frankly, even without regarding the question of whether or not God exists, faced with the world we have now, or one where we lack any moral discernment or incentive, I think this one is preferable. Furthermore, if we presume that God exists and is a being able to make moral judgments, then I think morality begets morality. As in, I would judge that a morally upstanding person, when raising a child, doesnā€™t just want to give that child a set of rules and tell him to follow them, but rather would prefer that the child have a strong moral compass of his own and the ability to make meaningful moral judgments as he faces them in his life. We can act like morality can be summarized in a succinct set of rules, and to a large degree it can be, but itā€™s easy to come up with a dilemma that means that one has to break at least one of those rules. Rules are great for those getting a grasp on the concept, but attempting to resolve those conflicts can quickly make the rules become needlessly complex. Instead, it is far better to have moral motivations and incentives, being able to tell which ones are more meaningful in which situations and act accordingly. Thus, Iā€™d argue that based on those assumptions, itā€™s not only non-contradictory that evil exists, but itā€™s necessary. Of course, none of this in anyway proves that God exists either. Really, I think that if weā€™re going to discuss whether or not God exists, Iā€™d rather just see more interesting arguments than ā€œlol evil =\> no godā€. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-a-troll-or-like-nolans-the-joker/701368/16 "2014-10-15T19:50:11Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > As someone else poin out upthread, this is just a variation on the theme of the problem of evil. Frankly, the Problem of Evil strikes me as sort of the atheistā€™s version of First Cause in that it seems compelling to the person stating it, ultimately, itā€™s a well known argument and virtually any theist who is interested in participating in the sort of debate in which it will arise probably already has it resolved. > > Now, likely, I do think that the Problem of Evil does more or less preclude a theist like a Biblical Literalist, but if they are that, they have much simpler problems to overcome, probably things like Young Earth Creationism and Anti-Evolution views. > > Speaking for myself as a theist, I have no issue resolving the Problem of Evil; in fact, it seems to me that though many see the idea of a universe in which evil exists as a contradiction to an omnimax God, I think itā€™s the exact opposite. That is, the concept of good and evil is utterly meaningless in a context in which there is no choice. Itā€™s not unlike how saying how God cannot be ā€œlightā€ because darkness exists in the universe, but in a universe with no light, not only is the concept of darkness meaningless, but so is this property that has been assigned to God. > > In other words, good and evil are moral judgments and they can only exist in a context where moral judgment exists. For example, letā€™s take a dog and his owner. If that owner trains his dog well, the dog will behave as heā€™s trained. If heā€™s trained to be a seeing-eye dog or a rescue dog or a guard dog or attack dog or a fighter or whatever, heā€™s just following his training. Is it meaningful to judge the dog that helps people as good and the one that hurts and kills other dogs or people as bad? The dog himself lacks the tools to make a moral judgment, it was his trainer that instilled good or bad behavior into the dog, so it is the trainer that ultimately bears the moral responsibility for the behavior of the dog. > > It is exactly this logic that says why we canā€™t only children, mentally disabled, or animals as guilty for acts, because they lack the ability to make appropriate moral judgments. So, I think this same logic carries over to the idea behind the Problem of Evil. That is, the only way for there to not be evil is for us to lack the ability to make moral judgments, and thus, lacking the ability to make moral judgments means that we lack the ability to make moral choices. We may not be automatons, per se, but our decisions would be limited to choosing between vanilla and chocolate, but weā€™d have no ability to discern any meaningful difference in a dilemma that has moral implications. > > So, really, the question isnā€™t about whether God created evil or was capable of creating a universe in which there is no evil. Instead, it seems to me whether giving man the ability to make moral judgments is worth the very high cost of the existence of evil. Frankly, even without regarding the question of whether or not God exists, faced with the world we have now, or one where we lack any moral discernment or incentive, I think this one is preferable. > > Furthermore, if we presume that God exists and is a being able to make moral judgments, then I think morality begets morality. As in, I would judge that a morally upstanding person, when raising a child, doesnā€™t just want to give that child a set of rules and tell him to follow them, but rather would prefer that the child have a strong moral compass of his own and the ability to make meaningful moral judgments as he faces them in his life. We can act like morality can be summarized in a succinct set of rules, and to a large degree it can be, but itā€™s easy to come up with a dilemma that means that one has to break at least one of those rules. Rules are great for those getting a grasp on the concept, but attempting to resolve those conflicts can quickly make the rules become needlessly complex. Instead, it is far better to have moral motivations and incentives, being able to tell which ones are more meaningful in which situations and act accordingly. Thus, Iā€™d argue that based on those assumptions, itā€™s not only non-contradictory that evil exists, but itā€™s necessary. > > Of course, none of this in anyway proves that God exists either. Really, I think that if weā€™re going to discuss whether or not God exists, Iā€™d rather just see more interesting arguments than ā€œlol evil =\> no godā€. Earthquakes. Psychopaths. Disease. ---
**Author:** ![nani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58956e/32.png) [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-a-troll-or-like-nolans-the-joker/701368/17 "2014-10-15T20:59:39Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > Earthquakes. > Psychopaths. > Disease. Itā€™s not a bad question - why would God create a system of plate tectonics that leads to earthquakes that often cause palpable human suffering? Obviously, if he is all powerful, it is within his power to create an earth without, say, earthquakes or cancer. People treat unwanted pain and suffering as bad pretty much by definition, so how does that fit in with a benevolent God? Many responses I have heard to this are similar to the specific apologist tactic that argues that God did not mention a heliocentric solar system/round earth/evolution because it wouldnā€™t have been understood by the people of that time. Well, if that was the case, why didnā€™t God just make the real earth flat to match the book? These arguments, however, only engage people who choose to tie themselves to the specific assumptions underpinning them - assumptions that are, in the context of talking about religion and morality and other special things, arbitrary and local. More than a few people would be befuddled at my initial paragraph because they see life in any form as a precious gift. Others would attempt to assign a kind of positive value to enduring suffering. Others would highlight the futility of trying to rationalize Godā€™s actions and promote a more mystical communion with transcendence, where belief is a personal practice rather than a recognition of objective fact. And so on. Specific theological replies to the point you make are available and have been hashed over, no one has won over everyone. Iā€™d argue there is value in this process of seeking and disputation itself, but you might disagree. For me, then, the lesson of all this is that freedom of religion is perhaps the most important of our generally recognized ā€˜rights.ā€™ It encompasses our freedom to accept or reject things according to how we value them and all that that implies. Negotiating it is about handling the tension between ourselves as individuals and in community. Itā€™s good when one person calls out another person on a claim that they disagree with or that doesnā€™t make sense to them. But thereā€™s nothing that mandates us to ever actually agree in our hearts, if we donā€™t want to. And the consequences of that have been and are tremendous. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-a-troll-or-like-nolans-the-joker/701368/18 "2014-10-15T22:08:27Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > Earthquakes. > Psychopaths. > Disease. ā€¦And that meansā€¦? ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-a-troll-or-like-nolans-the-joker/701368/19 "2014-10-15T22:41:08Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > ā€¦And that meansā€¦? That arguments about evil being necessary for free will or goodness to exist are bollocks. Not all evil is artificial. If you want to define ā€œevilā€ as necessarily artificial, we can use the word ā€œsufferingā€ instead. Earthquakes and disease are nothing to do with free will or human choices, and yet they still cause massive amounts of suffering. Disease, especially, must vastly outweigh human evils when it comes to damage done. Iā€™ve heard the, in my opinion, disgraceful argument that both exist to allow humans opportunities for good. The sick of Calcutta existed to be extras in the Mother Teresa show, etc. Perhaps thatā€™s true, but if it is, morality as we know it is out the window anyway. As for psychopaths, they cause suffering but seem somewhat disadvantaged when it comes to making moral choices. That seems unfair to them (if they are to be judged) and unfair to those they hurt. ---
**Author:** ![MaverocK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@MaverocK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaverocK)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2014, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-a-troll-or-like-nolans-the-joker/701368/20 "2014-10-26T23:52:25Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > ā€¦And that meansā€¦? That means this world is not as a good place as some people believe it is. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-a-troll-or-like-nolans-the-joker/701368.md?page=2)