# Is God real? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 19, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-real/625675 "2012-06-19T19:45:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-real/625675/21 "2012-06-19T20:27:23Z")
[QUOTE=Invictus] I am of the opinion that if something is well defined it is true, and that the cardinal attribute of a real object is truth (ie correspondence to reality). [/QUOTE] Well, that gets into several things. First off, you’d need to demonstrate that any concept of God corresponds to reality. Since there is zero evidence of God or gods, that’s going to be rather hard to do…so, we are back to basically imagination. You and many others can conceive of a God or gods, to be sure…but until you have any empirical evidence in which to test your conception/hypothesis against it’s all just mental masturbation. > [@](#): > > Perhaps you could persuade me otherwise? Not to be snarky or anything, but I doubt it. Just as you are going to be hard pressed, without real empirical evidence, to convince many atheists of your theory here. Best to just agree to disagree instead of even attempt to persuade on this subject. -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-real/625675/22 "2012-06-19T20:33:21Z")
[QUOTE=Invictus] … Since will and sentience are human qualities we are anthropomorphicising when we attribute them to God. Since our wills are limited, we imagine God to have an unlimited will, an idea that is refuted by the existence of causality. Unless you suppose that God’s will is manifest through the laws of nature, you are contradicting yourself. The same goes for omniscience. [/QUOTE] Your basic assumption in all this, however, is that there is a God. And everything then springs from that premise. Trouble is, there is no EVIDENCE for a God or gods, so there is nothing with which to form a baseline to even attempt to define a God/gods like entity. Of COURSE we anthropomorphize our concept of ‘God’ or ‘the gods’…the very concept springs from human imagination and the need of humans to define things, to categorize things and to explain things that couldn’t be explained in our past, to make a chaotic and dangerous universe a bit more orderly and understandable. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-real/625675/23 "2012-06-19T20:35:03Z")
> [@Invictus](#): > > Thats the problem - already you are defining God in an inconsistent way by attributing omniscience and omnipotence. Straw man? Hardly. That’s pretty much the standard description of God. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-real/625675/24 "2012-06-19T20:40:40Z")
> [@Invictus](#): > > I am of the opinion that if something is well defined it is true, and that the cardinal attribute of a real object is truth (ie correspondence to reality). I believe that your understanding of “reality” is on par with your understanding of “atheism”. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-real/625675/25 "2012-06-19T20:44:52Z")
This sounds rather like Aquinas’ “logical proof” for God. “God is the greatest possible thing. Existing is better than not existing. If God didn’t exist, he wouldn’t be the greatest possible thing. Ergo, God exists.” ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-real/625675/26 "2012-06-19T20:54:59Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Hardly. That’s pretty much the standard description of God. You’re assuming monotheism. If Zeus is annoyed by the Sun shining in His eyes when He’s napping, He goes to Apollo or Helios about it - He can’t just smite the sun down without repercussion. ---
**Author:** ![Invictus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bc79bd/32.png) [@Invictus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Invictus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-real/625675/27 "2012-06-19T21:01:21Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > A unicorn is well-defined. It’s a horse with a horn growing out of its head. It’s better defined than any god is. > > Do unicorns exist as concepts? Yes. > > Do unicorns exist in the universe and something you can interact with, or something that performs miracles, or something you should pray to? No. > > Even if you could perfectly define a god or gods in your head, or write down the definition, does that make it exist outside of that conceptualization? No. > > Even if defining it as such would make it exist outside of that conceptualization, why would you worship it? Why would you make laws for it? Why would you, for example, make abortion or gay rights illegal because of it? > > If we suddenly found a population of unicorns that popped into existence because people defined them so perfectly, would you worship the unicorns? > > If I could precisely define the kind of mate I would want, down to the last detail, would that make her exist, and want to be my mate? It is necessary for a mind-object to be well defined before it can be considered real. That does not mean that all well-defined mind objects ARE real. Please don’t twist my words. ---
**Author:** ![akennett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee59a6/32.png) [@akennett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akennett)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-real/625675/28 "2012-06-19T21:06:26Z")
> [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#): > > You’re assuming monotheism. That assumption is already made when one speaks of “God.” ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-real/625675/29 "2012-06-19T21:07:27Z")
Why? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-real/625675/30 "2012-06-19T21:10:32Z")
> [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#): > > Why? Because “Gods” is a different word. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-real/625675/31 "2012-06-19T21:17:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > This sounds rather like Aquinas’ “logical proof” for God. > > “God is the greatest possible thing. Existing is better than not existing. If God didn’t exist, he wouldn’t be the greatest possible thing. Ergo, God exists.” You spelled [Anselm](http://www.princeton.edu/~grosen/puc/phi203/ontological.html) wrong. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Invictus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bc79bd/32.png) [@Invictus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Invictus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-real/625675/32 "2012-06-19T21:18:34Z")
Example - suppose I define God as reality. God is real because reality is real. Its very simple. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-real/625675/33 "2012-06-19T21:20:18Z")
> [@Invictus](#): > > …Suppose I say that God is all - God necessarily has existence, as an idea, and is real because the definition contains no logical contradictions. > > So if someone were to define God clearly enough to avoid any disparity between the mental object and reality, he must by necessity be real… Friend of **Lib** by any chance? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![akennett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee59a6/32.png) [@akennett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akennett)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-real/625675/34 "2012-06-19T21:20:45Z")
> [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#): > > Why? The capital G indicates a proper noun and refers to the Judeo-Christian god. Without the capital, then it refers to any one of the myriad of gods. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-real/625675/35 "2012-06-19T21:22:00Z")
[QUOTE=Invictus] Example - suppose I define God as reality. God is real because reality is real. Its very simple. [/QUOTE] Suppose I define God as a Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal? Since the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal is fictional, that means God is fictional…right? It’s very simple, as you said. -XT ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-real/625675/36 "2012-06-19T21:22:30Z")
> [@Invictus](#): > > Example - suppose I define God as reality. > > God is real because reality is real. > > Its very simple. Suppose I define _ **anything** _ as reality. _ **Anything** _ is real because reality is real. Simple indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-real/625675/37 "2012-06-19T21:22:42Z")
_shrug_ God is a category, a job title, not necessarily a first name. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-real/625675/38 "2012-06-19T21:23:28Z")
> [@Invictus](#): > > Example - suppose I define God as reality. > > God is real because reality is real. > > Its very simple. Unless your definition is simply wrong. ---
**Author:** ![akennett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee59a6/32.png) [@akennett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akennett)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-real/625675/39 "2012-06-19T21:29:26Z")
> [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#): > > _shrug_ God is a category, a job title, not necessarily a first name. Well, “god” is a category. The word “God” is the name given to one specific god. You can shrug it away if you wish, but communicating within common standards makes discussions much easier. ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-real/625675/40 "2012-06-19T21:37:07Z")
So someone up thread posited the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal as being the Judeo-Christian God? That’s just silly. He might or might not be some other God, but he’s certainly not that one. Though, to be fair, YHVH does sound like the sort of growl that a Ravenous Bugblatter Beast would emit, and possibly name itself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-real/625675.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-god-real/625675.md?page=3)