# Is golf a sport? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 4, 2009, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-golf-a-sport/491960 "2009-04-04T11:11:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-golf-a-sport/491960/61 "2009-04-07T18:35:21Z")
> [@silk1976](#): > > If there are defenders, it is a sport. Golf is a game (maybe competition would be a better word). Nascar is a game/competition. Football is a sport. So you’re saying the 100-yard dash isn’t a sport. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-golf-a-sport/491960/62 "2009-04-07T19:29:04Z")
> [@silk1976](#): > > If there are defenders, it is a sport. Golf is a game (maybe competition would be a better word). Nascar is a game/competition. Football is a sport. Hmm - didn’t realize that bocce, croquet, shuffleboard, and chess were sports… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-golf-a-sport/491960/63 "2009-04-07T19:40:45Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Hmm - didn’t realize that bocce, croquet, shuffleboard, and chess were sports… :rolleyes: Croquet certainly is. Believe me, it’s harder than it looks. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-golf-a-sport/491960/64 "2009-04-07T21:32:49Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I was thinking about this while watching the tournament last weekend - the Shell Houston open. > > The 18th hole - a par 4 - was playing freakishly tough. Someting like a 5.2 average for either the final round or the entire tourney. Long drive straight into the wind requiring a lengthy carry over water to fairway with devillish traps on the right. Water all down the right side up to the green, and some more horrible traps short and right. Pros were scoring 8s and 9s on this hole - which is practically unheard of. > > It crossed my mind that perhaps the average golfer COULD NOT complete that hole - at least not by hitting over the water. Maybe you could take a putter or short iron and putt/chip around the water and down the fairway, getting in in 50-100 strokes, but that’s barely the same as playing the hole. > > Similarly the 17th at TPC, with the island green. Or one of the par-3s at Medinah requiring a 200 yd carry entirely over water. > > Not that this proves the case one way or the other, but in at least some extreme cases, I think the average golfer COULD NOT play some of the holes the pros play. Same way folks say an amateur couldn’t hit pro pitching. Well, given enough tries you might eventually be able to make some kind of contact just by chance, but that certainly is not the same as “playing baseball.” Oh, I could have played it that day in under 10. I would not have laid money on breaking 7, though. I would have aimed a driver at those traps right and been quite happy to hit a fading slice short (WAY short) and right of them. Then, it’s just a matter of a couple of woods up the right side of the hole (they had little rough at that course), a pitch to the green, and three putts. Which I probably would have screwed up somewhere. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-golf-a-sport/491960/65 "2009-04-07T21:43:28Z")
I think there has to be some combination of the criteria listed in this thread. You need some aspect of physical skill (strength, speed, coordination). You need some aspect of competition (I like the defense criteria to get to this). The fact that it can be experienced by people with limited skill or conditioning doesn’t seem to be relevent. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-golf-a-sport/491960/66 "2009-04-07T22:04:12Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Long distance open water swimming competitions were dominated for years by women. Yet in the 2008 Olympics the winner of the Women’s 10K Open-water swim posted a time that would have put her hopelessly far out of first in the men’s race (more than twice as far as the 20th-place men’s finisher managed). ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-golf-a-sport/491960/67 "2009-04-08T01:50:12Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Yet in the 2008 Olympics the winner of the Women’s 10K Open-water swim posted a time that would have put her hopelessly far out of first in the men’s race (more than twice as far as the 20th-place men’s finisher managed). That’s not long distance. 🙂 Things like the English Channel, the Bering Straight, those records were held by women in recent times, but I think the tide is turning, pardon the pun. > **[Lynne Cox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynne_Cox)** > > Lynne Cox (born January 2, 1957) is an American long-distance open water swimmer, writer, and speaker. She is best known for being the first person to swim between the United States and the Soviet Union, across the Bering Strait, a feat which has been recognized for easing Cold War tensions between U.S. President Ronald Reagan and Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev. > In 1971, she and her teammates were the first group of teenagers to complete the crossing of the Catalina Island Channel in Californ... ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-golf-a-sport/491960/68 "2009-04-08T03:40:48Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Things like the English Channel, the Bering Straight… I’m not sure these qualify as competitions. Have they been swum simultaneously by a number of contestants? ---
**Author:** ![pricciar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@pricciar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pricciar)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-golf-a-sport/491960/69 "2009-04-08T03:47:31Z")
I think whatever they put in the sports pages is a sport and whatever they stick next to the comics is a game. Bridge? Game! Highschool Gymnastics? Sport! It makes it easier when you let other people decide things for you. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-golf-a-sport/491960/70 "2009-04-08T10:10:13Z")
As an international chess player, I would like to introduce you to ‘denksport’, which is the German for ‘sport of the mind’. This includes chess. I don’t mind if you want to define ‘sport’ as having a physical skill level (though do consider tiddley-winks satisfies practically all the definitions you’ve mentioned so far!). However the English language jumps from ‘sport’ - which at professional level requires talent, training and offers huge financial rewards - to ‘game’. A ‘game’ is played for laughs by the family. A game doesn’t have to be serious or paid. Chess has its own Olympiad, with around 150 countries competing. (There are 5 million registered players in Russia and the Chinese are aiming for 50 million serious players. In China, reaching a good standard in chess counts toward University entrance!) Chess has a World Championship played for millions of dollars. Chess probably has more books written about it than any other sport or game. A single international chess game takes up to 7 hours. It took computers around 40 years to be able to beat international players. When preparing for a single international game, a player will study around 100 of his opponent’s games using Chess Databases (which have millions of games stored). Top chess players can play without sight of the board. They not only accurately visualise the position, but can analyse many variations (all in their head) and then return to the game. I can assure you this skill takes years to master. **Chess is not a game.** ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-golf-a-sport/491960/71 "2009-04-08T10:52:23Z")
It is not accurate to say that “game” is something informal. Golf is a game, so is baseball. If chess is a game (and it is), it has some pretty lofty company. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-golf-a-sport/491960/72 "2009-04-08T15:36:59Z")
Golf is as much a sport as bowling is. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-golf-a-sport/491960/73 "2009-04-08T15:57:44Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Oh, I could have played it that day in under 10. I would not have laid money on breaking 7, though. I would have aimed a driver at those traps right and been quite happy to hit a fading slice short (WAY short) and right of them. Then, it’s just a matter of a couple of woods up the right side of the hole (they had little rough at that course), a pitch to the green, and three putts. Which I probably would have screwed up somewhere. 😃 So are you saying you are **“flabby, uncoordinated and clumsy”**? 😛 You golf rather regularly, no? What is your handicap? I carry between a 10 and 13, and imagine I could play the hole similarly to what you describe. And I could eventually hole out on the other holes I described (played Medinah last year, tho not from the pro tees.) But if you golf regularly, and have a hcp of 15 or less, you know how woefully incompetent the vast majority of golfers are. I’d say that 50% - maybe more - of people who golf 3+ rounds a year would have a hard time scoring less than 20 on that #18. Take the average person who is not a golfer, and they may even have a hard time making contact with the ball and advancing it any significant distance. Of course, that only shows that it is a “skill,” and does not necessarily say anything about it being a “sport.” ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-golf-a-sport/491960/74 "2009-04-08T16:14:40Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > So are you saying you are **“flabby, uncoordinated and clumsy”**? 😛 You peeked, didn’t you!!! :eek::eek::eek:☹ > [@](#): > > You golf rather regularly, no? What is your handicap? > > I carry between a 10 and 13, and imagine I could play the hole similarly to what you describe. And I could eventually hole out on the other holes I described (played Medinah last year, tho not from the pro tees.) Yes, I play quite regularly. At times, my handicap has been single-digit (low single digit on occasion), but right now it hovers around 12ish (is that enough weasel words??). And yes, there are plenty of people who play golf who would have trouble even getting the ball across the water. They belong on the sort of course that has no carry off the tee. 🙂 And you are right, it has nothing to do with the “sport” issue. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-golf-a-sport/491960/75 "2009-04-08T16:42:46Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > It is not accurate to say that “game” is something informal. Golf is a game, so is baseball. If chess is a game (and it is), it has some pretty lofty company. 😉 Maybe it’s a ‘this side of the ocean’ thing. I find in England that sport = professional and game = pastime. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-golf-a-sport/491960/76 "2009-04-08T18:47:11Z")
Nevermind. ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-golf-a-sport/491960/77 "2009-04-08T18:57:37Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > A quick search turns up a separate [American football league for women](http://www.iwflsports.com/). > > If both genders participate at the highest levels of competition, then I don’t consider it a sport. For example, Olympic equestrian events often have men and women riders. I don’t consider that a sport. Similarly, NASCAR would not be a sport. > > Interestingly, Olympic shooting has separate divisions for women, so it apparently is a sport, although it isn’t obvious what physical advantage one gender has over the other. I guess it depends on how you define “separate divisions” or for that matter “highest level of competition”. I brought up football because there are no rules in the NFL stopping women from playing (whereas I believe the NBA and WNBA explicitly have rules forbidding each gender from the other one, though I could certainly be wrong here). And women have played in Division 1-A college football. Does the fact that Katie Hnida kicked a few extra points suddenly make college football not a sport? Overall, of course, the main argument I’m making is that I can’t fathom how gender would have anything to do with why something is a sport. True, men and women, _in general_, are not equal in physical ability. Neither are Larry Fitzgerald or the sixth receiver on the 49ers squad, but the fact that they both play in the NFL shouldn’t have any bearing on whether they’re playing a sport. Why would physical inequities between players have anything to do with it? What makes gender so magical? ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-golf-a-sport/491960/78 "2009-04-08T19:03:43Z")
[Missed the edit window] FWIW, my own definition of a sport: any physical competition in which there is a winner and a loser decided on physical skill. Thus, games like Chess might be classified as “mind sports”, but they lack the physical aspect to avoid the “mind” qualifier. Things like NASCAR or equestrian, which take some physical skill but rely heavily on some outside force (the ability of the car or the horse) might also need qualifiers such as “motor sport”. And anything decided by judges giving scores instead of objective criteria (gymnastics, cheerleading, syncronized swimming, etc) are competitions, not sports. (This is not to say they lack the same physical requirements and hard work, but they’re not “sports”). So yes, golf is a sport, even if the best of the best aren’t the physical specimens we’d all usually think of as athletes. Neither are defensive tackles! ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-golf-a-sport/491960/79 "2009-04-08T19:14:28Z")
> [@glee](#): > > **Chess is not a game.** Sure it is. Even if you think it’s more than JUST a game, it’s still a game. All sports are games. After all, they don’t call it the “Olympic Sports,” they call it the “Olympic Games.” ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-golf-a-sport/491960/80 "2009-04-09T16:04:31Z")
> [@A\_Spoonful\_of\_Awesome](#): > > I’d hesitate to call NASCAR a sport as well, for the same reasons. I’m not restricting sport to only cardio conditioning, only that to be an athlete you must have an above-average degree of SOME type of physical talent. Yes, hitting a golf ball takes superior hand-eye coordination, but so does throwing a dart at a target. Insofar as strength is concerned, my understanding (I don’t play golf. I’ve not the patience for it) is that the distance you can whack a ball depends much less on the physical strength behind the swing and much more on the technical form and technique. This would disqualify it from sport, IMO. > > And I’m not even going to get into the absurdity that is the motorized golf cart. > > Though now when I’m getting more in to it, are events such as archery and horse racing sports? Horse racing might qualify, though the horses would be the athletes, not the midget jockeys whose physical talent stops at their ‘butt-whacking’ prowess\*. Archery is an olympic event, but isn’t it just a more technologically advanced form of darts? I don’t think hand-eye coordination can be the only deciding factor in determining what is a sport. Many games require you to be insanely coordinated. To be a sport, there must be some physical talent involved as well. > > (\*to be fair, I honestly don’t know much about the intricacies of horse racing, only what I’ve pulled from bad movies and that one time at the track.) (Late to the party, I know, but…) Having done both horse riding and go-kart racing, I would say that they are indeed sports : the morning after, you’re sore as hell in places you didn’t even know existed, let alone were using to drive a horse or car around. And as an endurance go-kart race proved to me, running 5 times 10 laps is dead tiring (with 2 other drivers doing the other 100 laps in alternance). I could barely walk straight afterwards. Same goes for horse riding : while to the casual observer it seems the guy just sits there and whacks the horse, you actually use a lot of back and leg muscles to stay up there and move in time with the horse. It’s more tiring than it looks. As to talent, well, racing involves quick reactions, following optimal trajectories and fighting the car all along, because _it_ wants to follow the path of least resistance - you can take a lot of G’s, driving like a maniac, and doing it all day long requires a heck of a lot of endurance. To put it another way : you sweat a lot, driving a car or a horse around :). I don’t know that you do playing golf, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-golf-a-sport/491960.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-golf-a-sport/491960.md?page=5)