Is good acting necessarily "realistic"? (With bonus discussion of the virtues of realism.)

If that post had any valuable information in it I would have bothered to make it slightly more comprehensible. The trouble I have in addressing the subject of ‘bad acting’ is that only the really, really, really… bad actors fit in that category. And those actors don’t appear in modern mainstream movies any more (if they ever did). After that, good or bad acting is in the eye of the beholder.

The realism part came from the OP in that thread:

So in terms of realism, its impossible to judge in a Star Wars movie. Otherwise realism belongs where it is entertaining and useful in a movie.

Interesting topic, but one entirely based on an individuals personal views. It’s kind of like asking what the best flavor at Baskin Robbins is.

Great topic. I find that people often complain about certain performances as “unrealistic”, when a truly realistic performance in many situations would be exquisitely boring.

I’ll combine some ideas and say that the key thing is for the actor to produce the effect that the scene needs, while also creating and maintaining the character that the work as a whole needs.

In other words, you’d have a Caryl Churchill or David Mamet play. The kind of script where even the interruptions and talkovers and stammers are scripted. I did one in college (Top Girls), and they’re f-ing excruciating to rehearse, and even worse to watch.

I don’t disagree without you, but I wanted to mention that I love how the characters in Buffy occassionally talk over one another.

True, but I was thinking of modern acting. It would be hard to find an acting style which would be considered good over the past 2500 years or so.
We should also distinguish stage acting from TV and movie acting. These are very different beasts.

Robert Altman did the realistic thing a lot. Actors having conversations with each other, and the camera eavesdropping. It worked well sometimes, MASH for example, where Hawkeye pushes Burns over the edge. But Nashville bored me to death with all of that. So realism is good where its good.

I think it has to be believable. Sometimes acting can be stylized (Nicholas Cage), but that’s a risk. For the most part I think it has to be realstic. Overly mannered acting makes me too aware I’m watching a movie, and the cornball, rapid fire deliveries prior to the emergence of naturalism makes old movies all but unwatchable to me.

Same here. That’s a great way to describe it, too. I can’t get past it at all, and wonder how people can enjoy older films when it is all so horribly poorly acted.

(Film) I would wager that even “realistic” performances aren’t truly realistic. Most “real” people are boring and uninteresting, and their mannerisms would make for an awful screen or stage performance. So good acting can’t be measured by “realism,” it has to go beyond that.

Sincerity is a fantastic term. People believe things. I want to feel as if these characters also believe things rather than just say them. So I would say good acting is both sincere and completely invisible.

So, to me, the best actors are the ones who disappear into roles and truly become someone else. It can be very stylistic or exaggerated so long as the real actor disappears (which is why I still love Depp as Capt. Jack Sparrow, even though it’s a caricature). There are very highly regarded modern actors I don’t like at all because they’re always “them” on screen.

Realistic acting is only good when reality is interesting.

Otherwise some of the best acting performances are far from realistic. The acting in Pulp Fiction comes to mind. Also, Daniel Day Lewis in There Will Be Blood, Anthony Hopkins in Silence of the Lambs, and Al Pacino in almost everything he’s in.

I came in to mention this one. Lewis’s performance is the definition of chewing the scenery. And it is brilliant. (Same for his performance in Gangs of New York.)

It depends on how you define realism. I tend to define it as appearing real in the universe of the movie. And I believe it is required in all non-comedies. In comedies, it only works with characters that are making fun of themselves.

(Movies which have comedic relief count as comedies during that particular part, although they have to be more restrained than a regular comedy.)

I think acting has as it’s first priority to be consistent with the style of the rest of the acting. It’s no use to be naturalistic in a movie that is otherwise broad in it’s style.

There’s something to be said for naturalistic acting, if all the acting is done so. Woody Allen seems to have this perfected in his films to some extent (though they still have a bit of essentially Woody quality to them).

To say it another way, whatever the style of acting, it shouldn’t distract the audience to the point of taking them out of the film.

As an aside, I think a lot of what people consider to be “bad acting” is really “bad dialogue” or sometimes “bad directing”. Even the best actor will have trouble saying badly written dialogue convincingly and even the worst actor will have trouble saying brilliantly written dialogue in a bad way.

Ok, if we want to stick with people who have only written new works in the last 50 years and worked in multiple mediums then throw in Ives, Pinter, Durang, Sheppard, David Kelley, Aaron Sorkin, and Joss Whedon too.

I agree that TV acting, movie acting and stage acting are all different things, but that doesn’t change the central thesis that not only is realism not needed for the acting to be good, it’s actually not wanted many times. Sticking with only realism is limiting.

Totally agreed. Acting of whatever style shouldn’t take you out of the movie.

That’s really interesting. I don’t know this, but I suspect that what makes someone an A list star is that their charisma shows through on camera - they may or may not have it in person, but the camera shows it.

Agreed. I would also suggest a 3) Should entertain in some way. You can have one and two, but if there is no entertainment value at all, it’s just people masturbating on stage (or camera). I think a lot of critical darlings forget this third point.

I can get past it, but I know exactly what Dio’s talking about - it comes off as horribly stilted now. Some older movies are killed by it, and some are great enough to rise above it (like “Casablanca”).

Natalie Portman is a good example of this - she’s brilliant in “V For Vendetta” and as unnatural and awkward as the rest of the cast in “Star Wars: The Last Three.” I blame George Lucas. :slight_smile:

I actually caught around a minute of some old movie while waiting around somewhere it was playing, and I definitely had the same sort of feeling. The acting wasn’t awful, but it was so obvious (especially for the female in the scene) that they were acting. They were trying too hard to give an impression of their feelings, whereas modern actors have learned to get in the right mind-set and act naturally within that.

I wonder how much of it is due to everyone (the actors, director, and audience) in the early years of film being used to stage performances that required such expressiveness to be understandable to an audience possibly located quite far away. Has there been any study of this phenomenon?

It’s all about verisimilitude, not realism. The audience needs to be able to immerse themselves in what’s going on it front of them, but sometimes that actually calls for an exaggerated approach.

As several posters have mentioned, actual human speech tends to be halting and confusing. Real people use run-on sentences, pepper their words with “ums” and “ahs,” change where they’re going mid-sentence, talk past each other, and are generally difficult for any third party to follow. The vast majority of film and TV writing, even today, eschews these attributes in favor of more flowing, rhythmic dialogue (often ironically referred to as “naturalistic”) designed to be easy for the audience to follow. There’s a continuum in how far this is taken, of course, ranging from the scripted awkwardness of the UK version of “The Office,” which more closely mimicks actual speech, to the hyper-literate, rapid-fire walk-and-talks of Aaron Sorkin’s shows, which are every bit as “unrealistic” as a classical Greek chorus.

The approach taken in the writing determines how the actors need to craft their performances. A fourth wall-breaking madcap comedy like “30 Rock” demands performances on the far side of “unreality,” where there are times when the characters are actually subsumed by their actors, who explicitly point out to the camera that everyone we’re watching is fake. Sorkin’s actors also talk in ways that do not remotely reflect realistic human speech, but because they also need to convey believable drama, their performances are, by design, more nuanced than Tina Fey’s performance of Liz Lemon. That doesn’t mean that Fey’s performance isn’t brilliant in its own way - in fact, it’s to her considerable credit that she is able to maintain the audience’s suspension of disbelief even after her character directly addresses them.

Joss Whedon’s characters are another interesting example. The “realism” of his shows varies quite a bit, although there is always an underlying wit that doesn’t line up with how real people talk and act. But two of his shows have far more “affected” dialogue than the others - specifically, “Buffy” and “Firefly.” In the former, the characters are written as “extra-articulate” teenagers, with vocal mannerisms reflecting the SoCal culture of the 90s. The latter is Whedon’s most stylized of all - the characters in speak a mix of Western drawl, Chinese exclamations, and science fiction futurespeak. What’s interesting is that neither “Buffy” nor “Firefly” feel less “believable” than Whedon’s more “grounded” shows, “Angel” and “Dollhouse.” The reasons for that are what I stated above: in all four shows, the writing and acting fit in near-perfect harmony. Whedon and his staff wrote dialogue for Mal and his motley crew that fit their space-western setting, and the actors embodied those roles, as written, with perfection.

A viewer whose primary criterion is truly “realism” should recoil at the confrontation between Mal and Crow at the end of “The Train Job,” but I’ve never seen anyone who didn’t respond to that scene with a combination of stunned amazement and glee. That tells me that, whatever people may say, their actual criteria for “good acting” is more complex, and has more to do with the verisimilitude of what they’re watching (as a combination of writing, acting, and direction) than the closeness with which the actors are mimicking actual human speech and behavior.