# Is Great Britain as enlightened as it seems from TV? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 4, 2011, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-great-britain-as-enlightened-as-it-seems-from-tv/591510 "2011-08-04T21:53:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-great-britain-as-enlightened-as-it-seems-from-tv/591510/21 "2011-08-05T02:43:53Z")
Disclaimer: I am of British descent and my daughters have plenty of real English relatives from their mother’s side. I like most British people I meet more than average for me at least. However, ‘enlightened’ is a loaded and presumptuous word. It reminds me of the South Park episode I was watching last night where much of the western U.S. was threatened by a ‘smug’ cloud originating out of San Francisco and strengthened by a front of hybrid car owners. You are just talking about cultural differences, not profound religious ones. English people are great when they aren’t rip-roaring drunk at the pub every night with the younger males getting into street fights for recreation that land you in prison in the U.S. for a long time. That is another stereotype they have with some degree of truth to it. If you want to get beaten senseless and/or have your stuff stolen in a petty theft, England is your utopia. I am not criticizing them so much as the idea of ‘enlightenment’ in general. I am not a prude at all but I don’t think the road to enlightenment starts with television of any sort. ---
**Author:** ![Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8c91f0/32.png) [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bam_Boo_Gut)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-great-britain-as-enlightened-as-it-seems-from-tv/591510/22 "2011-08-05T03:01:39Z")
Just don’t frighten the horses! 😃 > **[Mrs Patrick Campbell - Wikiquote](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mrs_Patrick_Campbell)** ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-great-britain-as-enlightened-as-it-seems-from-tv/591510/23 "2011-08-05T03:17:23Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I believe in the British airing of the Simpsons they bleep out any sort of profanity and anything otherwise offensive. Not to mention Britain has Sharia courts, you can get arrested for “hate speech”, and so on. The first part of this statement is not true. In _some_ instances words were removed or scenes were removed from airings usually because they were deemed insensitive at the time. A couple of examples I can recall off the top of my head Barney refers to “Princess Di” and the episode aired for a while after she died with her name removed, similarly when a pap takes a photo of Mr. Burns he exclaimed “Damn you, papparazo!” with the papparazo bit removed from airings shortly after Princess Diana died. There was also an episode that had the IRA blowing up a British pub, that segment was cut from the initial British airings. To the best of my knowledge in repeats these shows have aired in their entirety on British television. Funnily enough, another segment that was removed from a show on its initial British airing was Data’s referal to a United Ireland in Star Trek: TNG. I believe you’re correct that Sharia is used in some civil, arbitration settings in Britain but it’s not something I’m too knowledgable about. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-great-britain-as-enlightened-as-it-seems-from-tv/591510/24 "2011-08-05T03:25:10Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > English people are great when they aren’t rip-roaring drunk at the pub every night with the younger males getting into street fights for recreation that land you in prison in the U.S. for a long time. That is another stereotype they have with some degree of truth to it. If you want to get beaten senseless and/or have your stuff stolen in a petty theft, England is your utopia. 😕:dubious: Bar fights, young people drunk and aggro aren’t common in the US? Petty theft is non-existent too? You paint a funny picture of England, now had you said Scotland I might have to agree 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-great-britain-as-enlightened-as-it-seems-from-tv/591510/25 "2011-08-05T03:28:49Z")
[quote=“Gary “Wombat” Robson, post:11, topic:591510”] Some of the examples in the OP make sense to me. Some don’t. Is swearing a lot “enlightened”? I thought it was just uncultured. [/QUOTE] Swearing a lot isn’t enlightened, but dismissing swearing as uncultured is unenlightened. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-great-britain-as-enlightened-as-it-seems-from-tv/591510/26 "2011-08-05T03:49:04Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > Swearing a lot isn’t enlightened, but dismissing swearing as uncultured is unenlightened. That’s a bunch of Goddamn, ass-fucking horseshit… ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-great-britain-as-enlightened-as-it-seems-from-tv/591510/27 "2011-08-05T03:57:57Z")
I wouldn’t say it’s unenlightened, but swearing does tend to be used more frequently by those with lower vocabularies, and, when used instead of an elucidated response, really isn’t enlightened at all. That doesn’t mean that an enlightened person can’t use it, but they are either being unenlightened at the time, or are intentionally using it for effect. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-great-britain-as-enlightened-as-it-seems-from-tv/591510/28 "2011-08-05T04:06:02Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > That’s a bunch of Goddamn, ass-fucking horseshit… Your English isn’t too good, you should say, that’ a bloody bunch of arsefucking crap.:p:p:p ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-great-britain-as-enlightened-as-it-seems-from-tv/591510/29 "2011-08-05T04:09:36Z")
> [@HennaDancer](#): > > I’ve been watching a lot of British TV lately and I’ve noticed a few things that would never be shown on American TV, and some things that would never be shown without making a big deal out of them. > If you see a “normal” American couple, in almost every case, it’s going to be a man and a woman of the same race. Brits seem not to care if the couple is one black and one white, or two women, or two men. If you saw a couple like these on American TV, it would be a plot point. There, it’s nothing to take note of. > Also, they swear a lot more freely. > And the sexuality is a lot less veiled. Example- two characters were trapped in close proximity and kissed. Afterward, one says he wasn’t all that turned on. The other says she felt his hard-on. Americans might say I felt how excited you were, but not be so specific. > I’ve never been there, and I don’t know any British people personally, so I’m going totally off what I see on the telly. Have the Brits by and large gotten over the prejudices us Yanks still deal with? If not, does the BBC get grief about this kind of thing? That is all true, yup. British TV, generally, is more like HBO than other US channels. Swearing is covered by straightforward rules about which words can be broadcast at what time of day. Same with sex scenes. Relationships across two religions, at least two that have recently been in conflict, would be noteable, but ethnicity really wouldn’t be, either on TVor in real life. Some of the stuff you mention is more about informality than enlightenment, though, and one thing that’s struck me in the US is how much more informal a few things are here, especially clothing. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I believe in the British airing of the Simpsons they bleep out any sort of profanity and anything otherwise offensive. Not to mention Britain has Sharia courts, you can get arrested for “hate speech”, and so on. Some showings pre-watershed might bleep out some swearing, I guess, but it’s not like the Simpsons is full of profanity - would it really ever come up? We don’t have Sharia courts, and hate speech is covered by incitement to riot and other similar laws. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-great-britain-as-enlightened-as-it-seems-from-tv/591510/30 "2011-08-05T06:12:02Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I believe in the British airing of the Simpsons they bleep out any sort of profanity and anything otherwise offensive. Not to mention Britain has Sharia courts, you can get arrested for “hate speech”, and so on. I’ve never seen beeping in the Simpsons, but I’ve never seen it go out later than 7pm, so any profanity would be beeped because it’s before the water shed and might corrupt the minds of innocent children. We have Sharia law, as pointed out by [this wise man](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIPD8qHhtVU). Of course you could set up a court based on the FAQ of alt.monkey-love, and if you could get people to submit to arbitration by it then the civil courts would think that’s fine. > [@Chronos](#): > > As for race, would the same apply for a mixed white and south Asian couple? To the extent there’s an analogy in Britain to the American racial situation, that would seem to be it. You know, we never bought and sold south Asians. I don’t see any greater historical analogy. And the position of the races today, also, black people are generally poorer just like in America, not so for Asians. Anyway, I can think of four televisual white-Asian couples of the top of my head, and I don’t want much TV, so it’s far from rare. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-great-britain-as-enlightened-as-it-seems-from-tv/591510/31 "2011-08-05T07:46:48Z")
I love that there’s no issue with this in British shows - No-one makes an issue of Mickey-the-Idiot being Black in NuWho, for instance. Which is how it should be. It’s only when it’s used for contrast (e.g. Martha Jones in the Edwardian age) that race seems to be an issue. Sometimes I think they go too far - there do seem to be an awful lot of Blacks in Ancient Rome, Renaissance Venice etc… The only US show where I notice that sort of unremarkableness was _Firefly_, actually - never any issue, or even any notice paid, to the fact that Wash and Zoe are interracial. But then that’s the future. Oh, I guess _High School Musical_? Trying to remember if there was anything made of Gunn and Fred being interracial in _Angel_… ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-great-britain-as-enlightened-as-it-seems-from-tv/591510/32 "2011-08-05T08:06:59Z")
It’s not smooth sailing. [Midsomer Murders producer suspended over race row.](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12741847) > [@](#): > > Brian True-May, who co-created the series, told the Radio Times the long-running drama was a “last bastion of Englishness” and should stay that way. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-great-britain-as-enlightened-as-it-seems-from-tv/591510/33 "2011-08-05T08:36:49Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Not to mention Britain has Sharia courts, you can get arrested for “hate speech”, and so on. I won’t even bother with the details of why this is wrong and irrelevant. Just to say it’s total and utter utter UTTER bollocks. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-great-britain-as-enlightened-as-it-seems-from-tv/591510/34 "2011-08-05T09:31:25Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The only US show where I notice that sort of unremarkableness was _Firefly_, actually - never any issue, or even any notice paid, to the fact that Wash and Zoe are interracial. But then that’s the future. Oh, I guess _High School Musical_? Who was the interracial couple in High School Musical? I remember thinking it was a bit funny that, even though the friendships very carefully crossed racial lines, the lead white characters paired up and the second-string black characters paired up. ETA: **jjimm** , I particularly enjoyed the scare quotes around ‘hate speech’ too. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-great-britain-as-enlightened-as-it-seems-from-tv/591510/35 "2011-08-05T10:48:53Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I believe in the British airing of the Simpsons they bleep out any sort of profanity and anything otherwise offensive. Not to mention Britain has Sharia courts, you can get arrested for “hate speech”, and so on. You really need to get out more. ---
**Author:** ![wayward](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a87d85/32.png) [@wayward](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wayward)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-great-britain-as-enlightened-as-it-seems-from-tv/591510/36 "2011-08-05T11:01:55Z")
I’ve thought for a while that maybe the reason for a lot of the differences between the UK and the US is that we’re more mature as a nation. I don’t mean to say the people are more mature, but the nation itself. We’ve been a melting pot of invading and immigrating cultures for thousands of years. We’ve had our civil wars, uprisings and revolutions. We’ve ruled over the greatest empire the world has ever known, and seen it slip away again. I guess we’ve learned to not sweat the small stuff. ---
**Author:** ![drbhoneydew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d78d45/32.png) [@drbhoneydew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drbhoneydew)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-great-britain-as-enlightened-as-it-seems-from-tv/591510/37 "2011-08-05T11:02:41Z")
Enlightened? Maybe, but probably not. We just get het up about different things and at different times. 20 years or so ago pretty much all of the examples cited would have caused outrage in the press (and did). Race, sex, swearing and religion have had many, but by no means all, boundaries rolled back, largely, I suspect, because campaigns against landmark breaches of these boundaries have resulted in bigger audiences for the breach and have been incompetently done, with many of the most vocal having to admit that they hadn’t even seen the incident. The irony is that by and large, the breaches turned out to be either boring or tastefully done - making the fuss look a bit pointless. Does the BBC get grief about this sort of thing? Too bloody right it does. Screening _Jerry Springer the Opera_ was perhaps the most spectacular recent example, but it happens all the time - the assisted suicide documentary _Terry Pratchett: Choosing to Die_ caused a bit of a rumpus just a couple of months back. ---
**Author:** ![enigmatic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@enigmatic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enigmatic)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-great-britain-as-enlightened-as-it-seems-from-tv/591510/38 "2011-08-05T11:30:49Z")
A few points 1. A large section of the UK population is much more accepting of race, sexual preference, religious beliefs, A large population isn’t. There are still big divisions on this stuff (with the possible exception of religion) along age lines, and, to a lesser extent, class lines (or more accurately “went to university” lines). 2. Where race is an issues it’s a lot more complicated than pure skin colour and much more related to apparent degree of assimilation and recent immigration. It’s also tends to focus more on middle eastern and eastern European immigrant rather than black people (although I think the demographics on this are shifting a bit again). 3. With that in mind you need to realise that even amongst the daily mail brigade a black person with an English accent marrying into a typical western family would be much more “OK” than an English woman, say, converting to Islam, and then marrying. 4. The parliamentary law isn’t really worth comment to be honest, it’s the kind of stupid law that only manages to remain on the books due to it’s total ineffectiveness at stopping British people mocking politicians. 5. Although it has many flaws, I honestly think that the UK has the least corrupt government, justice system, and civil service in the world, as well as the best quality news gathering organisation. I sometimes wish that British people would be prouder of the things that we do have to be proud about. If you want to get a reasonable idea of the “baseline” UK attitude to sex, race, and other issues Dr Who probably is a surprisingly good model, as it’s a Saturday evening big demographic family show, but you need to realise that they are pushing the edge of the envelope for that market, not sitting comfortably in the middle. ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Foolscap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-great-britain-as-enlightened-as-it-seems-from-tv/591510/39 "2011-08-05T11:37:49Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > On the other hand, Britain does not allow satirical programs to [use footage of Parliment to hold it up to ridicule](http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/03/idUS359828967620110803):Not so enlightened when it comes to political speech. We take the piss out of politicians an awful lot despite that, though - Mock the Week, The Now Show, The News Quiz, a Northern Irish panel show I saw once but forgot the name of, Have I Got News For You, Dead Ringers Spitting Image (no longer showing, of course)… We also broadcast footage of Parliament and Prime Minister’s Question Time, and they get interviewed a fair amount by people like Jeremy Paxman, so the politicians can make fools of themselves without our help 😉 I always had the impression that we had _more_ political satire and holding politicians to task this side of the pond, but that could be because the only shows we get over here are The Colbert Report and The Daily Show. Regarding the swearing: the act itself might not be enlightened, but I think that not getting hung up over a character saying “shit” is. We’ve even got to the point where “cunt” can be used semi-regularly on some shows (short-lived Channel 4 sitcom _Free Agents_ and BBC sitcom _Episodes_ for example), although there’s no way you’ll hear it on mainstream TV any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![enigmatic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@enigmatic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enigmatic)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-great-britain-as-enlightened-as-it-seems-from-tv/591510/40 "2011-08-05T11:45:34Z")
It’s also easier for the BBC to take a few risks on this, they don’t have to sell advertising, and there is much more general willingness to ignore a few complaints. This then tends to extend to the commercial stations who can point to what the BBC is doing to defend their own stuff, and the advertisers who are much more likely to take stick for bowing to the influence of a few angry racists than they are to lose sales because of advertising. The UK is also much less religious, and people are much less likely to be aggressive in their beliefs. This means that it is much less acceptable to pull out the divinely mandated morals card to justify their prejudices, and people are much more likely to keep quiet or be ignored. “The Bible says it is a sin” is never going to influence a mainstream debate in the UK, even if a few people still believe it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-great-britain-as-enlightened-as-it-seems-from-tv/591510.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-great-britain-as-enlightened-as-it-seems-from-tv/591510.md?page=3)