Is guarding the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier a sought-after posting or something most want to avoid?

Factual Questions
61

Upon review, I was confusing three separate areas into two.

  1. There is the larger barracks up the hill on Ft. Myers where they can be fairly normal (whatever that means within the kind of pressure and schedule they endure.) This is what I thought Whacks was referring to above.

  2. There is a small guard shack where the Sergeant of the Guard stands between changes.

  3. What I wasn’t realizing, and what was referred to in the video and above, is that there is a small living quarters actually on Arlington cemetery, right under the tomb, for those who are on their 24-hour shift. And yes, the decorum anywhere on the cemetery ground should be extremely respectful. That’s true of anyone who is there.

62

Not much to add, except that I saw a PBS documentary on the Honor Guard some years ago and learned that while being dressed and groomed by fellow soldiers just before going on-duty, a miniature blowtorch is used to burn off any errant threads. Their attention to detail may fairly be described as fanatical. And their boots have metal plates to change their posture and make for a more impressive click of the heels, so some of the guards develop back problems over time.

Here’s an even older honor-guard ritual: Ceremony of the Keys (London) - Wikipedia

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The bottoms of the shoes are made to be flat. There is a heel, but the toe portion is made thicker so that the front is even with the heel, creating an overall flattening effect which not only gives them a statue-like posture, but allows them to walk without any noticeable movement of their head. Instead of bobbing up and down, they just kind of glide. This is accomplished by a walking technique that incorporates this unique sole design.
The metal plates are on the sides to give the shoes a clicking sound when they bring their feet together sharply.

As for back problems… I think that’s just a general Army thing :smiley:

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10-minute video here, hosted on The Old Guard’s YouTube channel. Includes interviews with sentinels and footage of them preparing for duty. Watch the attention to detail as they (and their prep team) get every thread of their uniform into place, and listen to them as they explain how they feel about being a sentinel.

TL,DW: Sentinels don’t appear to take on this duty because they’re slackers who’d rather not be on combat duty; they take great pride in the level of perfection they aspire to, and they all view this assignment as a great honor and an immensely important duty. Most applicants aren’t accepted, and for those who are, it takes huge effort to deliver the expected performance on a consistent basis. I think this video directly addresses the OP’s questions: yes, it’s a tough assignment, but the soldiers who take on that assignment all want very much to be there.

65

If you say so, Bear.

66

That’s a great show. But do you really think that Solider was prepping to pop off a few rounds into a guy that crossed a chain? I don’t believe for a moment that rifle was loaded.

This isn’t rocket science. They aren’t there to guard, they’re there to show respect and for PR. And that show of respect has been earned by those men and it’s just and important that they are so honored. But that pacing back and forth only happens in the movies - and there. In really life, guards aren’t “pacing” anywhere.

To the OPs question. If you are into this sort of thing, the uniforms, being in the limelight, being on display, and doing something unique, than this is your cup of tea and you’d like it. If you want to be hone your craft, whatever it is in the Army, this isn’t it. That doesn’t mean that you’re a good or bad guy either way. Different strokes and all that.

As I said earlier, this is much like the Blue Angels or the Thunderbirds. If that’s your thing it’s great. But I know many hot shot pilots that think it’s nothing more than a dog and pony show that it’s a waste of time beyond recruiting.

67

You have no idea what you’re talking about, and you’re trying to debate a subject matter expert. For your next trick are you going to tell Colibri that he’s wrong about some hummingbird because a random YouTube video contradicts him?

Here, I will walk you through it:

The Tomb Guard carries an M14 rifle. This rifle uses a detachable, external, box magazine as shown here..

The rifle carried by the Tomb Guard has no magazine inserted. That means that at most there can be only one round currently chambered in the rifle at the start of your video. IF it were the case that the rifle had a chambered round, then it would have ejected when the soldier racked the bolt! So, even if it was loaded, he would have unloaded it by racking it.
And regardless, we can see the weapons are empty and clear before the guard even starts the shift, because he clears it in front of the guard commander at the start of every ceremony. Just watch a video of the inspection sequence. The very first thing he does is show that it is clear.

So yes. I do say so. And the facts agree with me.

68

And I, an ex-navy veteran, say even the army isn’t stupid enough to pretend to load a piece. YMMV.

69

(My emphasis)

That’s called “zero drop”, and is a feature of some running shoes - Altras, for example. It sometimes takes a bit to adjust to a zero-drop shoe, but most runners who try them get used to them. The most common complaint is not back pain but sore Achilles tendons. Don’t know the effect of steel plates in the boots, but I expect the drop doesn’t give the guards much trouble.

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If noisily pretending to load a round is enough to quickly deter 99% of poorly-behaved tourists, then the action is useful for carrying out their mission (i.e. maintaining proper visitor decorum) and should not be considered stupid. The recalcitrant 1% can be handled by armed police officers in the vicinity, allowing the sentinel to continue his mission without mussing his uniform.

What is your rebuttal to Bear_Nenno’s description of visual details that clearly indicate the sentinel’s rifle isn’t loaded (and couldn’t possibly be loaded after ostentatiously racking the bolt)?

71

That’s one way to look at it. Another is to consider what it is that is actually being guarded. “Dulce et decorum est. Pro patria mori.” is a thing. Fallen soldiers* are regarded as heroes, their names inscribed on memorials, their families given special honors. To the extent honor and glory are a fair payment for the sacrifice, these are necessarily denied to those whose remains cannot be identified. Hence, Tombs of the Unknown Soldier.

It doesn’t take a narcissist to be moved by the opportunity to honor one’s siblings with a perpetual, intricate, and difficult display. I would believe the hardest part of the duty is maintaining composure when someone who has benefitted from the sacrifice and solidarity represented by the monument attempts to disgrace it. That goes for drunks looking to take a leak on the flame, to soldiers with purely selfish intentions seeking some “easy” eye candy.

No, they’re probably not going to harm the very people they ultimately protect. But every ceremonial threat up to that point defends the principle of the memorial; and more often than not brings to the surface the cowardice of those who would sneer at the defenseless dead.

  • generic term, inclusive of any armed combatant in service of his/her country
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Moderator Note

If you want to dispute the point, let’s do so factually and without the snark. No warning issued.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

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And just how far are these police lurking? There are countless videos showing the guards chasing someone away with a stern warning and then this one showing the guard racking a round. In order for Bear’s scenario to be true either the guard in question is a hothead, making an empty threat to shoot someone or he genuinely felt there was a threat requiring a potentially fatal response. My bet would be the latter.

Now, if that were true and he did not have any ammunition, he has now made a threat to someone and is merely holding an awkward club if they respond poorly. Are the police going to be able to swoop in fast enough to take care of the situation?

Yes, there is no magazine visible in the piece but what Bear does not seem to have considered is that M14 magazines come not only in a 20-round capacity but also 5-rounds, which fit flush against the bottom of the rifle.

An honor guard has no real use for 20 rounds but just might for 5. If the army in its wisdom has decided that the guard need not actually be armed, the guard is an idiot for pretending to be.

74

Halberd, actually. Gut you like a fish in one quick motion. One disregards the presence of a bayonet at his own peril. I’ll take the bullet any day, given the choice.

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DesertDog, I don’t think they carry a mag in the rifle. The sling fits tightly across the bottom of the magwell, so you can’t see it normally. But watch this PBS video on the Changing of The Guard, and look very carefully around 3:30. You’ll see there isn’t a magazine in that weapon.

Further, though I’ve never shot an M-14, wouldn’t the magazine follower hold the bolt open if an empty magazine were inserted into the weapon? Whereas with no magazine in it, the Sentinel can cycle the weapon and have the bolt go all the way forward.

Betcha they might have a loaded magazine nearby in that white cabinet in their green guard house though. And if they don’t, the National Park Police do.

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Oh, and we had a thread here on what if the guards got attacked, back in 2007.

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Jesus, DesertDog, one can see through the entire mag well during the inspection. There is no fucking magazine.. Why do you find that to be more unbelievable than a soldier using deadly force against a tourist for wandering outside a railing.
As for how far away the police are? How far are they from the any of the other thousands of hallowed graves and tombs at ANC or across the country? Or in Europe for that matter. I visited the grave of General Patton in Luxembourg on Easter. There was a modest chain around his gravesite. No armed guard there or security of any kind.
The tomb doesn’t need lethal force protection FFS.

78

I’m kind of amazed by this too. They are there so why not have them be actual guards and not just honor guards? I am not sure if it is much use for them to have to run to a phone to call someone and wait for a response when they are right there.

I see no reason why they could not do this. Surely they could modify the uniform to include a pouch for an ammo clip. You could argue someone could overwhelm them and take their gun but that is true for any policeman/security guard.

These guys seems to be pretty serious so I am sure they could handle being an actual guard too.

I believe the others who say it is all ceremonial but seems silly not to take advantage of them being there.

79

Of course there’s no magazine in the rifle during an inspection. Nobody’s crazy enough to have live rounds in a rifle – even if unchambered – while looking down the barrel and manipulating the action. (I don’t know what it takes to be an SME around here, but I would hope that eight years in the Army is close enough.) That doesn’t mean that there’s no loaded magazine while walking guard duty, but that PBS video looks pretty conclusive that there’s not. However, the guards are now armed with unique Sig Sauer M17 pistols, and those do have the magazines inserted while being carried. Whether there are rounds in those magazines is another question. I would tend to think that even if the sentinels don’t have live M17 rounds, the Sergeant of the Guard does.

https://www.sigsauer.com/m17-tomb-of-the-unknown-pistols/

http://soldiersystems.net/2018/10/13/tomb-of-the-unknowns-guards-begin-use-of-custom-m17-pistols/

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There are millions of unarmed guards in the United States. A loaded weapon is not required to guard anything. What kind of actions are you imagining that would require a lethal force response? I mean, think about. There isn’t even anything there that is priceless. The tomb itself can be cleaned, repaired or even replaced. Nobody is going to get inside and damage the actual bodies.
Meanwhile, there are actual priceless irreplaceable artifacts at the Smithsonian that don’t have armed guards pacing in front of them. There might be an usher or something keeping an eye on it. If something happens, they call for someone with arrest authority and a gun. It’s really no different with the Tomb. I can hardly imagine a scenario where the tomb guard would need to shoot someone.

I see no reason why they would need to do this. If the military needed to protect something at that location using deadly force, they would post someone nearby with a modern weapon and probably body armor. They’re not going to use a fancy, antiquated weapon (even a fully functional one) to guard anything. And they’re not going to guard a block of granite with a bullet.
They’re there to honor site and to ensure that visitors maintain a quiet, respectable atmosphere and do not trample or climb all over it. Those things do not require a loaded weapon to enforce.

Exactly! And what is the logical consequence of this? If the rifle is empty during the inspection… and the guard stays in sight following the inspection… and the guard never puts a magazine in the weapon after the inspection… then the rifle is still empty during the walk. Every single step and movement of these guys is scripted. At no point do they ceremoniously load a magazine.

No amount of years in the Army is required. To be an SME on this, I think that at a minimum you just need:

  1. to know how an M14 works, and you need
    2a) to have either watched a Tomb Guard in person, or
    2b) watched a YouTube video of an entire Changing of the Guard ceremony that includes the new guard starting his/her walk (without loading a magazine), or
  2. talked to actual Tomb Guards, or
  3. be familiar enough with firearms that you can tell the difference in sound between a racked bolt slamming into an empty chamber versus the sound made when it actually feeds a round from the magazine into the chamber.

For the record, I satisfy all of those. The fact that I’ve been in the Army for close to two decades and have actually used an M14 (EBR) in Afghanistan are just bonuses.

If the rifle is empty during inspection, and we never see a magazine loaded, then the weapon is still empty.

The guards are not armed with M17s. Only the Relief Commander carries an M17. He/She has always been armed with a pistol. The M17 just replaced the M9s they’ve had since the 1980s.

Yes, that is another question for another thread.

The guards themselves do not have M17s. Only the Commander of the Relief (who, himself is a Tomb Guard) carries a pistol. They can be seen during the changing of the guard and during other ceremonies. However, the guys pacing back and forth on the mat do not wear pistols.