# Is Gul Dukat the most likable "bad guy" on a TV series? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** tv-shows-scripted\ **Created:** [April 22, 2022, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gul-dukat-the-most-likable-bad-guy-on-a-tv-series/963235 "2022-04-22T09:22:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Pavelb1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/439d5e/32.png) [@Pavelb1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pavelb1)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2022, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gul-dukat-the-most-likable-bad-guy-on-a-tv-series/963235/81 "2022-05-06T19:05:08Z")
Liz Lemon. She’s just horrible. HORRIBLE. As for Trek…Damar is one of my fave DS9 characters. ---
**Author:** ![dorvann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df705f/32.png) [@dorvann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorvann)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2022, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gul-dukat-the-most-likable-bad-guy-on-a-tv-series/963235/82 "2022-05-06T21:10:31Z")
> [@Pavelb1](#): > > As for Trek…Damar is one of my fave DS9 characters Second that. Also I don’t think Marc Alaimo as Dukat and Casey Biggs as Damar get enough credit how well their acting was while wearing all the alien make-up and prosthetics. As well as Armin Shimerman, Max Grodénchik, and Aron Eisenberg as Quark, Rom, and Nog respectively. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2022, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gul-dukat-the-most-likable-bad-guy-on-a-tv-series/963235/83 "2022-05-07T00:43:05Z")
> [@dorvann](#): > > Second that. > > Also I don’t think Marc Alaimo as Dukat and Casey Biggs as Damar get enough credit how well their acting was while wearing all the alien make-up and prosthetics. As well as Armin Shimerman, Max Grodénchik, and Aron Eisenberg as Quark, Rom, and Nog respectively. Quark was amazing as an actor under that amount of make-up. He also possibly qualifies as a likeable bad guy, because he did do some pretty bad things - not on the level of genocide, but that’s a high bar - and then also acted heroically on occasion, risking himself when he knew nobody would give him credit for it. Aron Eisenberg is definitely one of the reasons it’s so nuanced. I don’t think the other ferengi really manage to act past the prosthetics as well as he does. He made it seem like he was born with those features. Damar really gave the impression that he could have gone the other way [spoiler]if his daughter hadn’t died. And loving your daughter should be an automatic thing, but in the real world, that doesn’t always happen; the monsters of history tend to not give a tiny shit about their kids’ wellbeing. When I watched the series first time round, at some point it became clear that Damar’s daughter was going to die, and what that would mean, but that’s fine - it’s classical tragedy, really. And I really hoped it wouldn’t happen somehow even though storytelling meant it would. [/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2022, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gul-dukat-the-most-likable-bad-guy-on-a-tv-series/963235/84 "2022-05-07T05:22:28Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Damar really gave the impression that he could have gone the other way if his daughter hadn’t died. I think you mean Dukat, not Damar. I don’t recall Damar ever mentioning his family, though Dukat’s daughter was a recurring character on the series and Damar is the one who killed her. ---
**Author:** ![Pavelb1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/439d5e/32.png) [@Pavelb1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pavelb1)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2022, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gul-dukat-the-most-likable-bad-guy-on-a-tv-series/963235/85 "2022-05-08T05:10:05Z")
From my fave DS9 ep “Tacking into the Wind” [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Fjd9RgRUQDY/hqdefault.jpg "Yeah, Damar, what kind of people give those orders?") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fjd9RgRUQDY) ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2022, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gul-dukat-the-most-likable-bad-guy-on-a-tv-series/963235/86 "2022-05-09T17:40:14Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > I think you mean Dukat, not Damar. I don’t recall Damar ever mentioning his family, though Dukat’s daughter was a recurring character on the series and Damar is the one who killed her. I did. This is the second time lately that I’ve written the wrong thing due to not paying attention - must try harder! ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2022, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gul-dukat-the-most-likable-bad-guy-on-a-tv-series/963235/87 "2022-05-10T00:35:32Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > How about Ben Linus from _Lost_ ? I’ve always found him to be utterly and completely unlikeable. He constantly insists that he and his Others are “the good guys,” but I’ve never seen any evidence to support any shred of beneficence in them. Having started watching the Netflix Marvel TV series now that they’re on Disney Plus, I’ll nominate Dr. Karl Malus and Alisa Jones from season 2 of Jessica Jones. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2022, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gul-dukat-the-most-likable-bad-guy-on-a-tv-series/963235/88 "2022-05-10T03:04:34Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > . I don’t recall Damar ever mentioning his family, In the final few episodes when Damar becam a great resistance leader there was a plot point where Damar’s family was murdered by the Dominion. What about Spike from Buffy? Likeable even as a villain, before his conversion to hero. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2022, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gul-dukat-the-most-likable-bad-guy-on-a-tv-series/963235/89 "2022-05-10T06:51:09Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > > [@Alessan](#): > > > > How about Ben Linus from _Lost_ ? > > I’ve always found him to be utterly and completely unlikeable. He certainly started out that way, but his characterization became more sympathetic later in the series, to the point where it was no longer clear whether he was really a villain after all. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2022, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gul-dukat-the-most-likable-bad-guy-on-a-tv-series/963235/90 "2022-05-10T21:44:11Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > What about Spike from Buffy? Likeable even as a villain, before his conversion to hero. He’s a very good call. Had to keep reminding myself he did regularly murder people and that doesn’t actually get cancelled out by being witty. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2022, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gul-dukat-the-most-likable-bad-guy-on-a-tv-series/963235/91 "2022-05-11T01:14:26Z")
“The truth is, I _like_ this world. You’ve got… dog racing, Manchester United… and you’ve got people. Billions of people walking around like Happy Meals with legs.” - Spike, _Becoming, Part 2_ ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2022, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gul-dukat-the-most-likable-bad-guy-on-a-tv-series/963235/92 "2022-05-11T01:32:50Z")
Yup, that’s definitely one of the parts that makes him a likeable bad guy, who’s still very much a bad guy, and still very much someone you could imagine having a beer with. He’d probably even let you finish your pint before killing you. And also not stupid. You can’t wipe out your entire food source just because you hate them, and then whine about being hungry. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gul-dukat-the-most-likable-bad-guy-on-a-tv-series/963235/93 "2022-05-30T14:46:35Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I feel the same way about Londo as I do about Dukat - the writers are so clearly signaling to me that this is _supposed_ to be an ambiguous villain, but they’ve made them so _clearly_ morally deficient that that just doesn’t work (for me). It doesn’t help that I resent being railroaded. > > Londo’s _fun_ , but he’s not _likeable_ . He’s an asshole. Look at how he treats Vir. Londo starts out as an ambitious obnoxious asshole; it’s only after his nose gets rubbed in the consequences of his actions and choices (not only to himself but to others) that he starts to change, albeit ultimately too late to save himself. Dukat never changes; he just moves on from one convoluted lie and one grift to the next, always looking to justify his deep moral deficiencies and validate the long string of atrocities in his wake. Londo manages a degree of redemption; Dukat is a scumbag to the end. > [@](#): > > Now _Bester_ , there was a more ambiguous B5 villain. Agreed. A nasty piece of work, but when you’re given a chance to see things from his perspective you can understand why he feels the need to be that way. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gul-dukat-the-most-likable-bad-guy-on-a-tv-series/963235/94 "2022-05-30T15:36:57Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Londo manages a degree of redemption A _very_ tiny degree - sacrificing himself to save a few humans is not sufficient atonement for helping to instigate genocide. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gul-dukat-the-most-likable-bad-guy-on-a-tv-series/963235/95 "2022-05-30T15:42:55Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Agreed. A nasty piece of work, but when you’re given a chance to see things from his perspective you can understand why he feels the need to be that way. I read the novel where Garibaldi finally catches up to Bester a decade later. It was not a pleasant meeting for him. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gul-dukat-the-most-likable-bad-guy-on-a-tv-series/963235/96 "2022-05-30T15:49:46Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > A _very_ tiny degree - sacrificing himself to save a few humans is not sufficient atonement for helping to instigate genocide. He also ultimately (and with the help of G’Kar) arranged for the liberation of Narn, brought down an extremely nasty emperor, attempted to free his planet of the Shadows’ influence, and worked to protect Vir. And the genocide was one of those unintended consequences I mentioned - he did start the ball rolling but he tried unsuccessfully to keep things from getting that bad. . Pity about the evil symbiote, though. ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_That](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roger_that/32/8505_2.png) [@Roger\_That](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_That)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gul-dukat-the-most-likable-bad-guy-on-a-tv-series/963235/97 "2022-05-30T15:51:01Z")
I’d nominate Lalo from BETTER CALL SAUL as a likable bad guy. I would use him as my example of someone you know is a terrible person, probably a psychopathic killer of innocents, whom you would nonetheless like if you just met him and he needed to charm you. ---
**Author:** ![dirtball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dirtball/32/18772_2.png) [@dirtball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dirtball)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gul-dukat-the-most-likable-bad-guy-on-a-tv-series/963235/98 "2022-05-30T15:59:22Z")
Jacob Snell in _Ozark_. If I were a neighbor and had no clue what he was up to except the agreeable facade he would present to me, I’d really like the guy. That said, his wife would be mega scary regardless. ---
**Author:** ![janis\_and\_c0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/janis_and_c0/32/21_2.png) [@janis\_and\_c0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/janis_and_c0)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2022, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gul-dukat-the-most-likable-bad-guy-on-a-tv-series/963235/99 "2022-05-31T19:39:24Z")
Londo gets my vote too. No one can chew scenery like Peter Jurasik! However I’d argue he was ultimately as much of a hero as a bad guy. One of my favorite characters! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-gul-dukat-the-most-likable-bad-guy-on-a-tv-series/963235.md?page=4)