# Is HALLOWEEN a SATANIC Holiday?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 16, 2001, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-halloween-a-satanic-holiday/87802 "2001-10-16T20:08:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2001, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-halloween-a-satanic-holiday/87802/21 "2001-10-17T16:22:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Sorry to say this, but I have an awful feeling that the Scottish Halloween traditions are just as much an American import and, worse, an American import via England. Is there any evidence that they pre-date the nineteenth century or even the twentieth century? \*\* I’ve no idea, but to speculate wildly, America to England to Scotland seems a bit unlikely, especially if Hallowe’en has been celebrated in Scotland since before WWI (I’m pretty sure it has been, from family experience). I know a lot of Christmas traditions came that way but there were good commercial reasons for that; Hallowe’en hasn’t been very commercial in Scotland until recently. We have an old tradition of going round houses that is not shared by England. It’s got a different name from trick or treating (“guising”) and has a slightly different form; you’re supposed to sing a song or tell a story to get your sweets. I may be completely wrong but these would have to be explained. If there is a common link between various countries’ traditions I’d have thought Ireland was a more likely origin. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2001, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-halloween-a-satanic-holiday/87802/22 "2001-10-17T16:33:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Steve Wright \* > \*\*Hmph. > > By the way… [off-topic] **Odoreida**? Do I detect a Stephen Potter fan here?[/off-topic] \*\* You certainly do. (A “h’m” climate is built up.) ---
**Author:** ![Wonko\_The\_Sane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/258eb7/32.png) [@Wonko\_The\_Sane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wonko_The_Sane)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2001, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-halloween-a-satanic-holiday/87802/23 "2001-10-17T17:08:02Z")
I could buy the whole satanic nature argument, what with all of the vampires, ghouls, monsters, forces of darkness, etc; because they are depictions of evil and such. The whole argument falls down when someone dresses up as a clown, or raggedy ann and andy. Unless you consider that sinful, because it’s misleading people as to your true identity. If that’s true, acting is immoral as well. I figure it’s just a silly dress up day for everyone. That’s all. If the holiday was originally pagan and such, fine, but it’s been watered down so much, I figure it doesn’t matter what the origin is, because I have no moral problem with giving out candy to kids who dress up in costumes. To each his own though. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2001, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-halloween-a-satanic-holiday/87802/24 "2001-10-17T20:38:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \*I am the only christian I know IRL who takes her son out for it. > \*\* Count this Born-Again type in on the fun (yeah, I know… You don’t know me IRL). Believing Christ died for our sins doesn’t mean that we can’t pick up a book and learn a few things. And it _certainly_ doesn’t mean we can’t have a good party now and again. My little girl agrees with your son: Fancy clothes and candy! Woot woot, what fun! Of course, around where I live, it’s yet _another_ excuse for college students to get drunk, stupid, and annoying. ::sigh:: ---
**Author:** ![scampering\_gremlin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@scampering\_gremlin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scampering_gremlin)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2001, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-halloween-a-satanic-holiday/87802/25 "2001-10-17T21:45:44Z")
I’m starting to wonder if this thread wouldn’t be better off in Great Debates or IMHO. Convincing other people to alter their religious beliefs and/or childrearing practices has never been my strong suit. The folks who know me don’t bother to argue this subject. If they don’t like a holiday (any holiday) then they can stay at home or create an alternative celebration or whatever…just don’t rain on my parade. Somebody out there must be a big fan of Arbor Day. All those trees though…suggests Druidic ritual to me…let’s all denounce it, right? ---
**Author:** ![lucie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed8c4c/32.png) [@lucie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucie)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2001, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-halloween-a-satanic-holiday/87802/26 "2001-10-17T23:28:55Z")
Well, I was raised in a pretty fundamentalist-type Born-Again Christian household, and we always celebrated Halloween. Trick-or-treat, school parties, church parties, whatever. The whole Satanism link seems to be a pretty new idea, dating from maybe the late '70’s or early '80’s. My parents still take the grandkids out in spite of the bad press. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2001, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-halloween-a-satanic-holiday/87802/27 "2001-10-18T05:17:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by techchick68 \* > The word itself, “Halloween,” actually has its origins in the Catholic Church. Of course, anything that was ever associated with the Whore of Babylon _must_ be Satanic! Just ask Jack Chick. ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2001, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-halloween-a-satanic-holiday/87802/28 "2001-10-18T06:48:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by G. Odoreida \* > \*\*By the by, did Americans celebrate Guy Fawkes Night before independence? \*\* Who the fawke are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2001, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-halloween-a-satanic-holiday/87802/29 "2001-10-18T09:25:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by G. Odoreida \* > \*\*I’ve no idea, but to speculate wildly, America to England to Scotland seems a bit unlikely, especially if Hallowe’en has been celebrated in Scotland since before WWI (I’m pretty sure it has been, from family experience). I know a lot of Christmas traditions came that way but there were good commercial reasons for that; Hallowe’en hasn’t been very commercial in Scotland until recently…If there is a common link between various countries’ traditions I’d have thought Ireland was a more likely origin. \*\* The problem with ‘family tradition’, as with any form of oral tradition, is that it all too easily accepts claims of great antiquity for practices which are in fact much more recent. I would be _very_ sceptical about any Irish influence. A ‘Celtic’ origin merely sounds more romantic than an English or American one. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by G. Odoreida \* > **By the by, did Americans celebrate Guy Fawkes Night before independence?** No, because this is another example of a ‘tradition’ which is much more recent than it seems. In the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries the Gunpowder Plot anniversary was primarily a religious commemoration, particularly promoted by the Church of England. Its main feature was the special sermons preached for the occasion. The traditions which we now associate with Guy Fawkes Night - bonfires, fireworks, a guy - only became widespread in England in the nineteenth century, partly as protests against attempts to repeal the laws against Roman Catholics. The practice subsequently spread to Scotland. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2001, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-halloween-a-satanic-holiday/87802/30 "2001-10-18T12:00:37Z")
Just to muddy the waters yet further, I’d always heard that “guising” referred to the custom of kids going out and collecting “pennies for the guy” - that is, that it’s related to the November 5th celebration, not Halloween. This could very well be a folk etymology, though, and I wouldn’t rely on it. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by G.Odoreida_ > **(A “h’m” climate is built up.)** Yes, but not in the South. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2001, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-halloween-a-satanic-holiday/87802/31 "2001-10-18T12:42:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Steve Wright \* > **Just to muddy the waters yet further, I’d always heard that “guising” referred to the custom of kids going out and collecting “pennies for the guy” - that is, that it’s related to the November 5th celebration, not Halloween. This could very well be a folk etymology, though, and I wouldn’t rely on it.** The _Shorter OED_ derives the Scottish and North of England usage from ‘guise’, as in manner of dress, but this usage is recorded only from 1878. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2001, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-halloween-a-satanic-holiday/87802/32 "2001-10-18T13:48:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by APB \* > The problem with ‘family tradition’, as with any form of oral tradition, is that it all too easily accepts claims of great antiquity for practices which are in fact much more recent. I would be _very_ sceptical about any Irish influence. A ‘Celtic’ origin merely sounds more romantic than an English or American one. > > \*\* I’m only using family tradition evidence to point out that Hallowe’en has been celebrated in Scotland since at least as far back as the early twentieth century. I know this is going miles from the original OP but you would have to suggest how and why American traditions became rooted anywhere in the UK so long ago, without any commercial pressure. After all, a cursory reading of a Thomas Hardy book will show that the UK is full of its own folk festivals, many of which exist to this day . Why would Hallowe’en be the one that’s come wholesale from a foreign country? Don’t get hung up on the possible “Celtic” origins of these celebrations; the fact is they exist. I was not equating Ireland with Celtic tradition. I’m talking about the way things have been done in the last couple of centuries, and I mention Ireland because, as entering “Scotland guising” in google shows, these two countries have had similar ways of celebrating Hallowe’en for about that length of time. The long quote in the thread that you cited, APB, mentions nothing that has happened in the last thousand years. Cultural influences can spread out all over a continent in that time, change, and even come back to the place they originated in a completely different form. Whether or not Hallowe’en was originally Celtic, or it first surfaced in England in 800 or whatever, is one discussion. Whether current traditions of trick or treat originated first in Ireland, the USA or Vladivostok is another. To link them would be a bit like saying that the American Constitution originated in Italy, because that’s where Roman type was invented. Regarding Guy Fawkes, APB, I realise I don’t know how it was celebrated in the past, but my point was whether whatever was done in the UK was also done in what’s now the USA. It’s not particularly important (or interesting) and since it’s got very little to do with the OP, let’s leave it. Sorry I’m speculating too much for GQ with all this. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2001, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-halloween-a-satanic-holiday/87802/33 "2001-10-18T13:50:03Z")
Our church is having a harvest party next Thursday. We are going, cause, hey, its another party! (and me and my son don’t drink anyways…) Its mentioned in the ad, No Ungodly Costumes. I wonder what they mean. My son will be a crayon. The guy who drives us to church said he wished they wouldn’t have costumes. I assume he’s real fun at parties… ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2001, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-halloween-a-satanic-holiday/87802/34 "2001-10-18T14:14:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by G. Odoreida \* > **Whether or not Hallowe’en was originally Celtic, or it first surfaced in England in 800 or whatever, is one discussion. Whether current traditions of trick or treat originated first in Ireland, the USA or Vladivostok is another. To link them would be a bit like saying that the American Constitution originated in Italy, because that’s where Roman type was invented.** I never said these questions were linked and specifically sought to address them separately. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2001, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-halloween-a-satanic-holiday/87802/35 "2001-10-18T14:28:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by APB \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by G. Odoreida \* > > **Whether or not Hallowe’en was originally Celtic, or it first surfaced in England in 800 or whatever, is one discussion. Whether current traditions of trick or treat originated first in Ireland, the USA or Vladivostok is another. To link them would be a bit like saying that the American Constitution originated in Italy, because that’s where Roman type was invented.** > > I never said these questions were linked and specifically sought to address them separately. \*\* Sure, but you don’t seem to have any evidence to back up your idea that Hallowe’en celebrations in Britain or Ireland are an American import (of course nowadays, with supermarkets selling pumpkins, they are, but I’m talking about our parents’ and grandparents’ generations.) ---
**Author:** ![Embra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Embra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Embra)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2001, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-halloween-a-satanic-holiday/87802/36 "2001-10-18T16:26:16Z")
APB, I think what G. Odoreida was trying to point out is that a lot of localised traditions regarding Autumn festivals exist within the British Isles. As a small child in the south-east of England, I did very little for Hallowe’en, barring the odd pumpkin and a smattering of ghost stories. The one year that I did go trick-or-treating was most definitely under the influence of my half-American friend. However, the “guising” tradition in Scotland doesn’t have a “trick” element to it. It chimes much more with the idea of earning a little something from the well-off by performing a turn. I’ve had some beautifully turned-out and very well-practised guisers turn up at my door over the years. Then again, there is the tradition of “mischief night” and variations, which is a Northern English tradition around Hallowe’en. This is entirely devoted to tricks - I don’t think there are any treats involved. In Somerset, people who celebrate [“Punky Night”](http://www.heathens.worldonline.co.uk/halloween/punky/index.html) (nb, no relation to the word "pumpkin :)) think that the tradition goes back 250 years. Ain’t necessarily so, but it’s another example of a localised custom. Like G. Odoreida, I can’t say for certain that any of these habits are older than this century. However, I think it’s a little sweeping to suggest that any autumn superstitions and practices involving costumes/gifts/mischief automatically come from the USA. For such a small land-area, there are a great variety of traditions within the British Isles. I would think that it’s more likely that the country with the greater rate of immigration would be the one which absorbed traditions from outside… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2001, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-halloween-a-satanic-holiday/87802/37 "2001-10-18T16:36:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Steve Wright \* > \*\* > Yes, but not in the South. \*\* I have been plonking somewhat, haven’t I? ---
**Author:** ![vl\_mungo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc8723/32.png) [@vl\_mungo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vl_mungo)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2001, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-halloween-a-satanic-holiday/87802/38 "2001-10-18T20:59:25Z")
The Sonoran Lizard King’s answer aside, Halloween is probably only a Satanic Holiday if you are a Satanist. Another appropriate H L Mencken quote… Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2001, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-halloween-a-satanic-holiday/87802/39 "2001-10-18T22:36:07Z")
Halloween is not only OK to celebrate, I think it’s important. When I was a kid and afraid of monsters, aliens, and death… Halloween was a chance to laugh at all of the things I was terrified of. I think overall, the fear of dying plagues a lot of us, so to have fun with what we’re afraid of makes us less incline to dread it. There was someone on the news who works at a novelty shop and said that the WTC disaster had hindered her sales on fake blood and gruesome masks. She said “I hope it’s a permanent change, violence and gore is not something we should expose to our children”. After she made that statement on video, the news caster said, “Wouldn’t that be wonderful.” First of… people who aren’t ever exposed to any type of gore, they’re the ones that would probably come back from war all fucked up. Death and violence is something that’s out there in the real world. THOUGH, I DO agree with peoples who want to tone the gore and blood down this year, I don’t want it to be messed up forever. Second… It’s fun to be scared. Third… Some extreme religious saps are afraid of pretty much everything. I don’t know how they can leave the house knowing that there are people having sex for fun, (not JUST for procreation), or homosexual love is growing in acceptance. These are very unhappy people for the most part. I feel sorry for them and their kids. ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2001, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-halloween-a-satanic-holiday/87802/40 "2001-10-19T07:14:37Z")
Incidentally, there was an [article](http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article.jhtml?articleID=214563) about Halloween in this morning’s newspaper here. (Unfortunately only in Norwegian.) A church organization said they were agin’ it. They made no mention of it being Satanic, however. They didn’t like it because it “encouraged children to engage in pranking” and because young adults used it as another excuse to indulge in Demon Alcohol :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-halloween-a-satanic-holiday/87802.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-halloween-a-satanic-holiday/87802.md?page=3)