# Is handling of animals driven by demand for meat the main reason for pandemics? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [March 16, 2020, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-handling-of-animals-driven-by-demand-for-meat-the-main-reason-for-pandemics/849582 "2020-03-16T14:13:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mandala](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mandala/32/95_2.png) [@mandala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mandala)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-handling-of-animals-driven-by-demand-for-meat-the-main-reason-for-pandemics/849582/1 "2020-03-16T14:13:55Z")
Many pandemic viruses and bacteria have reservoirs in the animal kingdom. Bats for example are carriers for many coronaviruses. Demand for meat brings these animals into direct contact with humans, enabling their jump from animals to humans. (Contact with animals required by the food industry is orders of magnitude more than other forms of contact - for example, contact required for scientific research.) Is it scientific to state that, therefore, if the demand for meat were to not exist pandemics would not occur? Or that their frequency would be vastly diminished? If the wet, live animal market in Wuhan did not exist, would we have still had this coronavirus pandemic? This thread is not to discuss vegetarianism vs meat-eating, but to understand what role food habits play in the emergence of pandemics driven by novel zoonotic pathogens. ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-handling-of-animals-driven-by-demand-for-meat-the-main-reason-for-pandemics/849582/2 "2020-03-16T15:44:45Z")
“Would not occur” seems too strong a statement to me. The immediately obvious recent zoonotic pandemics - SARS, MERS, Swine Flu, nCov-19 - jumped from animals handled for meat. But I think counterexamples are Ebola and HIV. It seems reasonable to state that there would be fewer pandemics, but there would still be some. ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-handling-of-animals-driven-by-demand-for-meat-the-main-reason-for-pandemics/849582/3 "2020-03-16T15:57:02Z")
Maybe those were bad counterexamples. Reading further, both [Ebola](https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/ebola-virus-disease) and [HIV](https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/8/5/01-0522_article) transmit to humans due to close contact with blood or hunting for meat. Does anybody know counterexamples to the OP - pandemics that would have happened even if nobody ever killed animals for meat? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-handling-of-animals-driven-by-demand-for-meat-the-main-reason-for-pandemics/849582/4 "2020-03-16T16:02:57Z")
> [@Frankenstein\_Monster](#): > > Does anybody know counterexamples to the OP - pandemics that would have happened even if nobody ever killed animals for meat? Bubonic/pneumonic plague, malaria, cholera - just off the top of my head. Historically, rats, fleas, and poor sanitation have been extremely effective disease vectors. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-handling-of-animals-driven-by-demand-for-meat-the-main-reason-for-pandemics/849582/5 "2020-03-16T16:06:23Z")
No. And as a matter of fact, if we did not use cows for milk–as opposed to meat (and yes, I am aware of the veal/dairy connection), the discovery of the fact that immunity to _vaccina_ (cowpox) conferred immunity to\* variola\* (smallpox) would not have been discovered. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-handling-of-animals-driven-by-demand-for-meat-the-main-reason-for-pandemics/849582/6 "2020-03-16T16:10:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Bubonic/pneumonic plague, malaria, cholera All bacterial as opposed to viral, though, right? For whatever that’s worth. And yes, it’s thought that HIV jumped from two simian species through butchering. ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-handling-of-animals-driven-by-demand-for-meat-the-main-reason-for-pandemics/849582/7 "2020-03-16T16:19:10Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > No. And as a matter of fact, if we did not use cows for milk–as opposed to meat (and yes, I am aware of the veal/dairy connection), the discovery of the fact that immunity to _vaccina_ (cowpox) conferred immunity to\* variola\* (smallpox) would not have been discovered. True. Still, bovine TB was a major killer until Pasteur found out how to sterilize the milk (and quite a bit longer, actually; it took some time for his discovery to catch on!) ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-handling-of-animals-driven-by-demand-for-meat-the-main-reason-for-pandemics/849582/8 "2020-03-16T16:22:55Z")
Just thought of Rabies. Though not a pandemic, it’s a virus that jumps to humans from animals without slaughter of the animal being involved. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-handling-of-animals-driven-by-demand-for-meat-the-main-reason-for-pandemics/849582/9 "2020-03-16T16:37:38Z")
[Marburg virus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marburg_virus) jumped to humans from lab monkeys. [Hendra virus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henipavirus#Hendra_virus) from horses. [Nipah virus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nipah_virus_infection) from fruits contaminated by bats. West Nile and Zika viruses from mosquito bites. There are many others. These aren’t pandemics, but they demonstrate that viruses can jump from animals to humans without any butchering of animals for meat. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-handling-of-animals-driven-by-demand-for-meat-the-main-reason-for-pandemics/849582/10 "2020-03-16T16:41:49Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > [Marburg virus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marburg_virus) jumped to humans from lab monkeys. [Hendra virus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henipavirus#Hendra_virus) from horses. [Nipah virus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nipah_virus_infection) from fruits contaminated by bats. West Nile and Zika viruses from mosquito bites. There are many others. These aren’t pandemics, but they demonstrate that viruses can jump from animals to humans without any butchering of animals for meat. Also anybody old enough to remeber the [Hantavirus](https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/24/11/18-0381_article)? ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-handling-of-animals-driven-by-demand-for-meat-the-main-reason-for-pandemics/849582/11 "2020-03-16T16:59:33Z")
> [@Frankenstein\_Monster](#): > > Just thought of Rabies. Though not a pandemic, it’s a virus that jumps to humans from animals without slaughter of the animal being involved. > [@scr4](#): > > [Marburg virus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marburg_virus) jumped to humans from lab monkeys. [Hendra virus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henipavirus#Hendra_virus) from horses. [Nipah virus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nipah_virus_infection) from fruits contaminated by bats. West Nile and Zika viruses from mosquito bites. There are many others. These aren’t pandemics, but they demonstrate that viruses can jump from animals to humans without any butchering of animals for meat. > [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Also anybody old enough to remeber the [Hantavirus](https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/24/11/18-0381_article)? As **scr4** acknowledges, neither of these have, however, caused something even close to a _pandemic_! Which, of course, doesn’t mean they aren’t nasty and shouldn’t be avoided! (Don’t get bitten by wild animals, don’t eat jungle meat, and wash your fruit before consuming it!) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-handling-of-animals-driven-by-demand-for-meat-the-main-reason-for-pandemics/849582/12 "2020-03-16T17:09:48Z")
Hanta and plague still have local outbreaks, but can be quelled because we understand how to treat them. The novelty of COVID-19 is a big part of the problem. ETA: Re: hanta: …and don’t clean up after mice without a good mask! ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-handling-of-animals-driven-by-demand-for-meat-the-main-reason-for-pandemics/849582/13 "2020-03-16T18:19:02Z")
> [@susan](#): > > All bacterial as opposed to viral, though, right? For whatever that’s worth. And yes, it’s thought that HIV jumped from two simian species through butchering. Right. Measles, yellow fever, and polio are viral though. All are unrelated to the handling of animals for meat. Measles and polio are human diseases. Yellow fever has animal reservoirs that can be infected but mosquitoes are the main vector for transmission not handling. We have vaccines now but all have been pandemic at times in history. Due to low levels of vaccination for yellow fever it is considered possible that we might yet see another pandemic. ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-handling-of-animals-driven-by-demand-for-meat-the-main-reason-for-pandemics/849582/14 "2020-03-16T19:49:24Z")
OK, so we have viral diseases, bacterial diseases, (human) pandemics and epidemics transmitted through (non-human) animals. I’m confounded. Anyone care to draw an Euler diagram? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-handling-of-animals-driven-by-demand-for-meat-the-main-reason-for-pandemics/849582/15 "2020-03-16T20:04:53Z")
Don’t forget parasitic diseases like schistosomiasis and fungal diseases like histoplasmosis. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-handling-of-animals-driven-by-demand-for-meat-the-main-reason-for-pandemics/849582/16 "2020-03-16T20:27:46Z")
Another thing that should be kept in mind when blaming omnivores for the spread of these sorts of viruses, is that in many cases the transition from animals to humans is through bush meat, where the animals have contact with pathogens outside the range of previous human habitation. So its not clear that middle class Americans switching to veggie dogs is going to close that vector. For the people who eat bush meat, it isn’t so much a culinary choice as an issue of survival, veggie dogs being few and far between in remote villages. ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-handling-of-animals-driven-by-demand-for-meat-the-main-reason-for-pandemics/849582/17 "2020-03-16T20:44:46Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Another thing that should be kept in mind when blaming omnivores for the spread of these sorts of viruses, is that in many cases the transition from animals to humans is through bush meat, where the animals have contact with pathogens outside the range of previous human habitation. So its not clear that middle class Americans switching to veggie dogs is going to close that vector. For the people who eat bush meat, it isn’t so much a culinary choice as an issue of survival, veggie dogs being few and far between in remote villages. Indeed, that’s a great argument for logging and bulldozing the last rain forests…! (Never mind the last inhabitants of said rain forests might object to this proposal…!) ☹ ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-handling-of-animals-driven-by-demand-for-meat-the-main-reason-for-pandemics/849582/18 "2020-03-16T20:59:26Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > …in many cases the transition from animals to humans is through bush meat, where the animals have contact with pathogens outside the range of previous human habitation. True, but there are major exceptions like bird flu (chickens) and swine flu (pigs). For anyone interested in this topic, I recommend _Spillover_ by by David Quammen. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2020, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-handling-of-animals-driven-by-demand-for-meat-the-main-reason-for-pandemics/849582/19 "2020-03-17T19:04:43Z")
According to this > **[Ebola virus epidemic in Guinea | Epidemiology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebola_virus_epidemic_in_Guinea#Epidemiology)** > > Researchers from the Robert Koch Institute believe that the index case was a one or two-year-old boy who lived in the remote village of Meliandou, Guéckédou located in the Nzérékoré Region of Guinea. Researchers believe that the boy was said to have contracted the virus while he was playing near a tree that was a roosting place for free-tail bats infected with the virus. Dr. Fabian Leendertz, an epidemiologist who was part of the investigative team, said Ebola virus is transmitted to humans eithe... the 2013 Ebola outbreak began when a toddler interacted with a bat while playing in a wooded area. ---
**Author:** ![mandala](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mandala/32/95_2.png) [@mandala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mandala)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2020, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-handling-of-animals-driven-by-demand-for-meat-the-main-reason-for-pandemics/849582/20 "2020-03-21T13:00:24Z")
Everything I have read - on this forum and elsewhere - seem to point to the fact that while all contact with animals cannot be avoided (including exotic ones), handling of animals for food demand is a primary reason for the transmission of zoonotic viruses from their animal hosts onto human hosts. It does not help that some people in countries like China also like to feast upon living or minimally processed animals, or rare and exotic animals. I believe the H5N1 avian influenza virus was also transmitted to humans due to contact with waterfowl, the natural reservoir for this virus. Possibly the 1918 Spanish Flu was transmitted likewise. Maybe if we kept our hands off animals (and their flesh off our dinner tables) the world would be a safer place? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-handling-of-animals-driven-by-demand-for-meat-the-main-reason-for-pandemics/849582.md?page=2)