# Is hate speech really not banned on the boards? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [October 31, 2015, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hate-speech-really-not-banned-on-the-boards/736283 "2015-10-31T20:20:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2015, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hate-speech-really-not-banned-on-the-boards/736283/202 "2015-11-05T19:38:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Indeed, in at least one case, you stepped in and asked us not to use that term, since the poster had not yet made it obvious they were a denier. (which of course, they were). > > But you see, if you 'deny" the “holocaust” you _are_ a “Holocaust denier”- sure, some are simply questioning some details or estimates (you’re not a denier if you think the number of deaths is more like 500MM instead of 6MM, even tho people will call you that), but others _deny._ Once you say “no Jews were killed in Gas Chambers” _you_\* are\* a Denier. > > If you support the works of “scientists” who posit that Blacks are lower in intelligence- you may or may not be a racist (altho the odds are that you are one), so bringing out that term is insulting and rather preemptive. Then the debate will shift to the use of that term, rather than the matter at hand. Based on this standard of course Joseph Sobran, David Irving, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Mahmoud Abbas were never Holocaust Deniers or engaged in Holocaust Denial. They were merely Holocaust minimizers, Holocaust Skeptics, or Holocaust agnostics. Also based on this logic, the term Holocaust Denier clearly at least as reckless used and as used as an insult as the term racist. In short, if the term racist is banned, regardless of context, then so should the term Holocaust Denier. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2015, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hate-speech-really-not-banned-on-the-boards/736283/203 "2015-11-05T19:50:58Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Based on this standard of course Joseph Sobran, David Irving, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Mahmoud Abbas were never Holocaust Deniers or engaged in Holocaust Denial. > > They were merely Holocaust minimizers, Holocaust Skeptics, or Holocaust agnostics. > > Also based on this logic, the term Holocaust Denier clearly at least as reckless used and as used as an insult as the term racist. > > In short, if the term racist is banned, regardless of context, then so should the term Holocaust Denier. Sobran said that the “Hitler regime,… was not, in fact, intent on racial extermination” which makes him a denier. Irving started out a maybe, but _“publicly denied that the Nazis systematically exterminated Jews in gas chambers during World War II”_= denier. “_outgoing Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said during a farewell ceremony Sunday that publicizing his Holocaust denial was a major achievement of his presidency._”= admitted denier. _“Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas denounced the Holocaust as the “most heinous” modern crime”_ , a change from his 1980 viewpoint. [http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=19561](http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=19561) “_Following the war," he writes, "word was spread that six million Jews were amongst the victims and that a war of extermination was aimed primarily at the Jews…The truth is that no one can either confirm or deny this figure. In other words, it is possible that the number of Jewish victims reached six million, but at the same time it is possible that the figure is much smaller – below one million._” Abbas denies that the gas chambers were used to murder Jews, quoting a “scientific study” to that effect by French Holocaust-denier Robert Faurisson." Calling the number in question is not a automatic denier, but denying the gas chambers is. However, it \*appears \*he has somewhat mollified his _public_ views in the last three decades. _Perhaps_ he is no longer a denier. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2015, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hate-speech-really-not-banned-on-the-boards/736283/204 "2015-11-05T20:18:08Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It is arbitrary in that its one of countless things to measure. Intelligence is not like other metrics because it is fundamental to our human identities in a way physical phenotypes aren’t, and it’s silly to pretend it’s just a metric like eye colour or height. Especially since we know it isn’t a singular metric like those others. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2015, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hate-speech-really-not-banned-on-the-boards/736283/205 "2015-11-05T20:18:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > For some reason, you seem to want to endlessly quibble about tiny pedantic points, and try to make those molehills into a mountain. and > [@](#): > > Why do _you_ support and promote their writings and opinions so much? I find them lacking in academic value and rather biased in tone. impressive. ensemble, impressive. bizarrely impressive. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hate-speech-really-not-banned-on-the-boards/736283/206 "2015-11-05T20:25:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > _“Prof. J. Philippe Rushton with Prof. Richard Lynn: “I.Q. and the Wealth of Nations” and “In Search of the African I.Q.” In a “two-fer” presentation Lynn and Rushton detail their latest findings. Lynn sums up highlights of his new work “I.Q. and the Wealth of Nations,” while Rushton shows why I.Q. tests are not culturally biased.”_ So, along with the many possible meanings of “and”, “co-author” and “paper” are two other words you don’t seem to know the meaning of… > [@](#): > > For some reason, you seem to want to endlessly quibble about tiny pedantic points, and try to make those molehills into a mountain. Oh, what a cute attempt at “I know you are, but what am I”. Do “I’m not touching you…” next… > [@](#): > > You can’t stand behind what your actual post was, so you go off on some quibble. Does this non-debate tactic, of pretending your opponent is doing the very thing you are doing, ever actually work for you? > [@](#): > > Why do _you_ support and promote their writings and opinions so much? I find them lacking in academic value and rather biased in tone. :rolleyes: But they _must_ have value - the mods say they’re valid science, after all. One can’t go against the will of Mod. Oh, and i’m rubber, and you’re glue… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hate-speech-really-not-banned-on-the-boards/736283/207 "2015-11-05T20:39:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Like I said: [snip tedious verbiage] > > But you seem to want the entire board to change based simply on your opinion. Really? Are you actually just _incapable_ of using the quote feature? (Or linking to the [Right Wing](https://www.renaudvis.com/product-category/downloadable-video/page/4/) [hate site](https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/american-renaissance) you [sourced you info](https://www.renaudvis.com/product/prof-richard-lynn-and-prof-j-philippe-rushton-reparations-for-slavery-american-renaissance-conference-2002-copy/) on that Rushton&Lynn talk from?) And no. I just want the particular rule against hate speech, already in existence, to be properly enforced rather than petty excuses made for why it doesn’t apply in the case of certain minorities only. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2015, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hate-speech-really-not-banned-on-the-boards/736283/208 "2015-11-05T20:46:16Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > (Or linking to the [Right Wing](https://www.renaudvis.com/product-category/downloadable-video/page/4/) [hate site](https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/american-renaissance) you [sourced you info](https://www.renaudvis.com/product/prof-richard-lynn-and-prof-j-philippe-rushton-reparations-for-slavery-american-renaissance-conference-2002-copy/) on that Rushton&Lynn talk from?) > . Again- Why do _you_ support and promote their writings and opinions so much? I find them lacking in academic value and rather biased in tone. Why not simply ignore the hatemongers and racists rather than promoting their sites and works? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hate-speech-really-not-banned-on-the-boards/736283/209 "2015-11-05T20:47:58Z")
Again - has this tactic _ever_ worked for you? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hate-speech-really-not-banned-on-the-boards/736283/210 "2015-11-05T20:52:21Z")
it did result in the achievement of a very special and unique status on some subjects here. but Dibble, i have learned here the phrase “tar baby.” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2015, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hate-speech-really-not-banned-on-the-boards/736283/211 "2015-11-05T20:54:56Z")
Tar baby tactics only work if they rile you up. I’m not riled up - more vaguely amused that he/she thinks they’re being clever. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2015, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hate-speech-really-not-banned-on-the-boards/736283/212 "2015-11-05T20:57:15Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > And if you ever did succeed in altering the meaning of “racist” to make it synonymous with “racial,” the euphemism treadmill would kick in: because disapproval is attached to the concept, not to the word itself, as soon as you succeeded, “racial” would become an insult. This is the most important observation. The standard that was advanced back by \*\*Dex \*\*was a rationale one, unlike the irrational standard now. If racist is such an ouchy Trigger Word that needs to be banned for Safe Space protection and a Politically Correct pseudo-synonym invented, then it should also be the case of the words / phrases like Denier, Sexist, Anti-Semite, etc. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hate-speech-really-not-banned-on-the-boards/736283/213 "2015-11-05T21:00:21Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Again - has this tactic _ever_ worked for you? You are the one that brought them up in the first place, not me. _“If you’re unfamiliar with the contents of the work of Rushton and Lynn, maybe you shouldn’t actually get involved in a conversation about the use to which they’re put?”_ By criticizing me for not “being familiar” does that not indicate you are familiar? 😕 So, are you or are you not familiar with their work? Why bring them up, why mention them in the first place? _You_ are the one bringing them up and thus promoting their work. Not I. I said “Why not simply ignore the hatemongers and racists rather than promoting their sites and works?”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hate-speech-really-not-banned-on-the-boards/736283/214 "2015-11-05T21:04:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > By criticizing me for not “being familiar” does that not indicate you are familiar? I take it you’re not familiar with the work of [Rage Against The Machine](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4smim2MNvF8)… ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hate-speech-really-not-banned-on-the-boards/736283/215 "2015-11-05T21:05:32Z")
For persons not completely foolish or of limited comprehension of the writing or writing to provoke a reaction for its own purpose, of course anyone with a interest in the issues of the subject of the racism, the intelligence and the claims of racial distinctions of intelligence will be familiar with them. Pretending these well known leading authors and purveyors do not exist of course achieves nothing… But it is passing bizarre to see how this behaviour that led to the restrictions on subjects can be replicated on another subject. impressive in a way. a strange way. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2015, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hate-speech-really-not-banned-on-the-boards/736283/216 "2015-11-05T21:13:07Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > This is the most important observation. The standard that was advanced back by \*\*Dex \*\*was a rationale one, unlike the irrational standard now. > > If racist is such an ouchy Trigger Word that needs to be banned for Safe Space protection and a Politically Correct pseudo-synonym invented, then it should also be the case of the words / phrases like Denier, Sexist, Anti-Semite, etc. Agreed. Meaning no disrespect, but. I thought both you and Kobal would find the idea that “racist” is an automatic insult while Holocaust Denier isn’t since you both live in a country where the latter terms are if anything far more loaded since they are actual crimes which can and has resulted in being prosecuted. I think if the other side were honest the only reason for deciding that dex’s and Marley’s standard be scrapped was that a lot more white people are more afraid of being called “racist” than “denier”. As it is, we have the current status quo where Chen and his cronies can freely call Dibble a “negroid” and it would be allowed but Dibble couldn’t use the term “racist” to describe the person using that term. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2015, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hate-speech-really-not-banned-on-the-boards/736283/217 "2015-11-05T21:13:33Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Pretending these well known leading authors and purveyors do not exist of course achieves nothing… They aren’t all that well known, and they’d be far less well known if intelligent people would ignore them, as they deserve. Instead some posters here demand others be 'familiar" with them and even post links to racist websites. Exactly as you’d expect hatemongers to do. I dont have to read _Mein Kampf_ to know it’s full of crap. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2015, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hate-speech-really-not-banned-on-the-boards/736283/218 "2015-11-05T21:16:31Z")
But apparently you’d freely _quote_ from _Mein Kampf_ without citing it…add "ignore’ to that list of words you don’t seem to know the meaning of. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2015, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hate-speech-really-not-banned-on-the-boards/736283/219 "2015-11-05T21:23:17Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > As it is, we have the current status quo where Chen and his cronies can freely call Dibble a “negroid” and it would be allowed but Dibble couldn’t use the term “racist” to describe the person using that term. wiki: _Negroid (also known as Congoid)[1] is a term that is used by forensic and physical anthropologists to refer to individuals and populations that share certain morphological and skeletal traits that are frequent among most populations in Sub-Saharan Africa._ You can find no less than 20000 cites using that term on Google Scholar, such as _Occurrence and recurrence of basal cell carcinoma of the head and neck in negroid and albinoid africans S. A. Ademiluyia1 c1 and G. T. A. Ijaduolaa_ Are you calling Professor Ijaduolaa a racist? Admittedly the term is loosing credence, but it’s still used in Scientific Journals by non-racists. Now, dont get me wrong, if a member of a group says “Please dont use that term, I find it offensive”- I used to say that was the right thing to do. But the Staff of this board and many posters insist on using the term “cisgender” even after being informed it is offensive. “after all it’s a useful scientific term”:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2015, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hate-speech-really-not-banned-on-the-boards/736283/220 "2015-11-05T21:23:19Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Meaning no disrespect, but. I thought both you and Kobal would find the idea that “racist” is an automatic insult while Holocaust Denier isn’t since you both live in a country where the latter terms are if anything far more loaded since they are actual crimes which can and has resulted in being prosecuted. I am not at this time a resident in the France due to the work, but in any case I look at this via the internal context of this board discourse and this board culture. > [@](#): > > I think if the other side were honest the only reason for deciding that dex’s and Marley’s standard be scrapped was that a lot more white people are more afraid of being called “racist” than “denier”. I think it more honest to say that there is a small vocal sub-set of a political tendency - not even all that tendency but a sub set - that are afraid of this word, because there remains a political space for them and a certain political tribalism then defends, but there is no political stance in the USA that would in any way defend even an indirect hint of the Denialism… > [@](#): > > As it is, we have the current status quo where Chen and his cronies can freely call Dibble a “negroid” and it would be allowed but Dibble couldn’t use the term “racist” to describe the person using that term. Yes in some fashion - it is the illogical and gross inconsistency, and the completely bizarre and unfounded giving of priviledge a fringe to call any use of the word racist (as in the case of the quoted primarily discussing and descriptive instance, not name calling), while allowing the use of words of equal weight in supposed insult. I am against, to be clear, banning the simple nouns that are descriptive and always found the dex and the marley standard rationale. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2015, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hate-speech-really-not-banned-on-the-boards/736283/221 "2015-11-05T21:24:34Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > But apparently you’d freely _quote_ from _Mein Kampf_ without citing it…add "ignore’ to that list of words you don’t seem to know the meaning of. Only after others have promoted it and insisted that everyone _needs_ to be familiar with that work before being allowed to debate.:rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hate-speech-really-not-banned-on-the-boards/736283.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hate-speech-really-not-banned-on-the-boards/736283.md?page=12)