# Is having children selfish act? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 8, 2017, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-children-selfish-act/786138 "2017-05-08T17:28:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-children-selfish-act/786138/161 "2017-05-14T23:33:58Z")
The fact that you haven’t committed suicide tells me that you don’t really believe in what you’re selling. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-children-selfish-act/786138/162 "2017-05-15T01:44:35Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > The fact that you haven’t committed suicide tells me that you don’t really believe in what you’re selling. That’s not true, it just means I’ve too afraid of death to do so. It’s not exactly an easy thing to go through with. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-children-selfish-act/786138/163 "2017-05-15T02:03:18Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > The sum total of your rebuttal, every single time to every single poster, is the equivalent of shutting your eyes, sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming LA-LA-LA-NOT-LISTENING-LA-LA-LA… > > You can call out whatever rhetorical fallacy you want, but just because they are the only response you have, doesn’t mean you’ve won the argument, or even have a valid argument to present. You’ve not proven that your position is the predominant one, yet you insist that it is. The fact that there is evidence, backed by science, that your position is highly likely linked to mental illness (depression, most likely) only makes you want to ignore it, like a climate denialist ignoring the evidence that climate change is real. > > The fact that you’ve found a small minority of like minded individuals who seem to have the same nihilistic view of the world doesn’t mean you’re onto something here. All you’ve done is find a community of like minded nihilists who enjoy moaning and obsessing about the fact that you just can’t seem to find any joy or meaning in your daily existence. Every reason you’ve given so far is nothing but confirmation bias - you’ve excluded all evidence except a tiny fraction of unsupported opinion from like minded nihilists and anhedonics because it fits with your preconceived notions. > > My guess is, is that you actually derive pleasure from all this bitching and whining about how void of meaning your life is. I agree with **Human Action** who (I believe) suggested that despite declaring that life is without joy and meaning, you actually derive joy and meaning from all this obsessive moping, knowing you are not alone with your nihilism. > > You are in love with the self-indulgent imagery of standing alone naked and screaming into the void. Hey, some people are only happy when they are miserable. If so, brood away, **Machinaforce**. Whatever gives you meaning and doesn’t hurt anybody else in the process. No, because I know that there hasn’t been a strong point listed here that the links I have posted have not refuted. You haven’t read any of the links otherwise you would not be posting these replies, like I have said before. A position doesn’t have to be predominant to be right. The majority of people, which you like to reference, don’t think too much about meaning or anything deeper than what they have to do the next day. They probably could not even know where someone is coming from when they talk about things like this. The majority live in blissful ignorance of the deeper questions of life that would likely shake them from why they do the things they do. Your evidence is flawed in that regard and likely reinforces the author’s point, that most people have no idea. We do what we do because of social influence, because it’s acceptable. I rather doubt that if you exposed them to a fraction of this material that those surveys would likely yield the same results. Their opinion is rooted in ignorance. That’s why your evidence doesn’t hold weight. I want to reject what they are saying, but I can’t just do that because I don’t like what they say. That would be confirmation bias and would make me as bad as everyone else who does that. The bad news is that Ligotti is not widely known at all and that’s why I can’t find strong reasoning against his claims beyond one really well written two star review on amazon. Anywhere else I see him mentioned, which isn’t very wide, seems to regard his analysis as accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-children-selfish-act/786138/164 "2017-05-15T02:13:23Z")
**Machinaforce** , what do you want people to _do_? What’s your goal? Just say it, whatever it is. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-children-selfish-act/786138/165 "2017-05-15T02:29:04Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > No, because I know that there hasn’t been a strong point listed here that the links I have posted have not refuted. I read one of your links, a discussion on Reddit. People were arguing on the premise that any level of suffering justifies the desire to avoid creating more humans. It’s a belief system; logic is useless. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-children-selfish-act/786138/166 "2017-05-15T02:44:41Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > No, because I know that there hasn’t been a strong point listed here that the links I have posted have not refuted. > > You haven’t read any of the links otherwise you would not be posting these replies, like I have said before. A position doesn’t have to be predominant to be right. The majority of people, which you like to reference, don’t think too much about meaning or anything deeper than what they have to do the next day. They probably could not even know where someone is coming from when they talk about things like this. > > The majority live in blissful ignorance of the deeper questions of life that would likely shake them from why they do the things they do. Your evidence is flawed in that regard and likely reinforces the author’s point, that most people have no idea. > > We do what we do because of social influence, because it’s acceptable. I rather doubt that if you exposed them to a fraction of this material that those surveys would likely yield the same results. > > Their opinion is rooted in ignorance. That’s why your evidence doesn’t hold weight. I want to reject what they are saying, but I can’t just do that because I don’t like what they say. That would be confirmation bias and would make me as bad as everyone else who does that. > > The bad news is that Ligotti is not widely known at all and that’s why I can’t find strong reasoning against his claims beyond one really well written two star review on amazon. Anywhere else I see him mentioned, which isn’t very wide, seems to regard his analysis as accurate. This has become repetitive and tiresome. I leave you to your wallowing in misery; Too afraid to die and too depressed to live. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-children-selfish-act/786138/167 "2017-05-15T23:03:18Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > This has become repetitive and tiresome. > I leave you to your wallowing in misery; Too afraid to die and too depressed to live. If it’s repetitive its because you haven’t provided any evidence to the contrary. I have already listed why your “evidence” doesn’t apply. The fact that boredom is a factor in the human condition is reason enough. The compulsive urge to always having to be stimulated, never satisfied and always seeking. There is no permanent source of joy or happiness in the world. Makes one wonder why we even put up with the suffering that happens to us, why live for tomorrow? Life just seems like a long struggle with little reward ending in death. What do we live for? Another temporary and fleeting joy, one after another? Seems like running through life with an eternal carrot on a stick. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-children-selfish-act/786138/168 "2017-05-15T23:04:20Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > **Machinaforce** , what do you want people to _do_? What’s your goal? Just say it, whatever it is. I want a decent counterpoint to all of this that they have not anticipated and provided a counterargument that nulls it ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-children-selfish-act/786138/169 "2017-05-16T13:18:44Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I want a decent counterpoint to all of this that they have not anticipated and provided a counterargument that nulls it _Sic transit gloria mundi, Dum vivimus vivamus._ Now, go wash your bowl. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-children-selfish-act/786138/170 "2017-05-16T13:29:40Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > If it’s repetitive its because you haven’t provided any evidence to the contrary. I have already listed why your “evidence” doesn’t apply. > > The fact that boredom is a factor in the human condition is reason enough. The compulsive urge to always having to be stimulated, never satisfied and always seeking. There is no permanent source of joy or happiness in the world. > > Makes one wonder why we even put up with the suffering that happens to us, why live for tomorrow? Life just seems like a long struggle with little reward ending in death. What do we live for? Another temporary and fleeting joy, one after another? Seems like running through life with an eternal carrot on a stick. Do you have a job? Are you a student enrolled in a school? Do you have friends? Do you have pets that depend on you? Do you exercise? Do you have a good family relationships? Do you have good reasons to leave the house? Do you have a reason to get up every morning? Do you take regular care of yourself and tend to your personal needs? (wash, cook, clean, laundry, dentist, GP, etc…) Do you have hobbies & interests that don’t include obsessive self-indulgent prevaricating? Do you see a mental health professional on a regular basis? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-children-selfish-act/786138/171 "2017-05-16T14:38:10Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I want a decent counterpoint to all of this that they have not anticipated and provided a counterargument that nulls it For one thing, anhedonia only affects a small percentage of the population. It appears to be caused by problems within the brain, related to dopamine. Therefore, people afflicted with anhedonia generalizing their experiences to everyone else is akin to a blind person insisting that everyone is blind, and vision is just a delusion. Given that your argument is based on an anhedonic worldview, I would argue that it carries no weight with anyone whose brain doesn’t have that breakdown in the dopamine system. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-children-selfish-act/786138/172 "2017-05-16T15:01:01Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > For one thing, anhedonia only affects a small percentage of the population. It appears to be caused by problems within the brain, related to dopamine. > > Therefore, people afflicted with anhedonia generalizing their experiences to everyone else is akin to a blind person insisting that everyone is blind, and vision is just a delusion. > > Given that your argument is based on an anhedonic worldview, I would argue that it carries no weight with anyone whose brain doesn’t have that breakdown in the dopamine system. **Machinaforce** has already rejected this reasoning as specious because dismissing mental illness is just a convenient way of dismissing the “valid” arguments offered by the mentally ill. He doesn’t want a reasonable rational response. He simply wants to reject out hand anything that doesn’t agree with his twisted world view. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-children-selfish-act/786138/173 "2017-05-16T15:40:59Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > **Machinaforce** has already rejected this reasoning as specious because dismissing mental illness is just a convenient way of dismissing the “valid” arguments offered by the mentally ill. Fair enough, but I’m not dismissing his argument, except for his attempts to universalize the experiences of a few, who have differently-functioning brains from the rest. Within the context of anhedonia, what he’s saying might well hold true; that doesn’t mean it applies to everybody else. > [@](#): > > He doesn’t want a reasonable rational response. He simply wants to reject out hand anything that doesn’t agree with his twisted world view. True. I still find it bizarre how he’s hung up on life being meaningless, but can’t even suggest what a meaningful life would be. That’s like complaining about not being able to see a color that doesn’t exist - inventing a fictional problem out of whole cloth. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-children-selfish-act/786138/174 "2017-05-16T16:12:25Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Ironically, it’s generally more self focused (and generally affluent and focused on career and advancement) types who generally opt to not have kids. But this is subject to a somewhat similar effect to that which makes the OP’s argument silly, which I agree it is. ‘What’s a real argument for life having any meaning?’, but what’s a real argument for it not having any meaning? The OP just feels it doesn’t, some other people also don’t, most other people do (or act as if they do, and actions which imply it like building a family are at issue). Without seeming anti-intellectual, how much further can you really take it than that? But similarly you can always deconstruct generosity or altruism. You can argue people who have kids do it to validate themselves emotionally in the shorter run (hell of an expensive and time consuming way, but still it’s probably one elementl), or in the long run to have somebody likely to give a damn about them when they get old. But there’s no denying your point either: not having kids can be a way to focus more money and attention on oneself now. As disclaimer I have grown kids I think highly of. I’m glad they’re around, not excluding looking to if I last long enough to become weak and helpless. Is it _why_ we had them? No that wasn’t the thinking, to the extent there was actual thinking, at the time. 🙂 But I’m satisfied with my life. It has ‘meaning’ to me. Besides if someone has a mental medical issue where they are a threat to harm themselves and I can help, I have limited concern for whether other people feel their lives have meaning. That really is the epitome of one’s own problem. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-children-selfish-act/786138/175 "2017-05-17T20:32:09Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > For one thing, anhedonia only affects a small percentage of the population. It appears to be caused by problems within the brain, related to dopamine. > > Therefore, people afflicted with anhedonia generalizing their experiences to everyone else is akin to a blind person insisting that everyone is blind, and vision is just a delusion. > > Given that your argument is based on an anhedonic worldview, I would argue that it carries no weight with anyone whose brain doesn’t have that breakdown in the dopamine system. It just seems like a cheap way of dismissing an author who has won quite a few awards in horror and who inspired the guy who created the TV show TRUE Detective. I just don’t get how people here can ignore the support for his work and as well as the reviews for the apparent genius of his nonfiction on amazon. Seems like event though he isn’t widely known, those who know say the insight is piercing. I doubt everyone who says that is suffering from the same thing he is. I was just looking for logic to undo him and not just write him off as ill ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-children-selfish-act/786138/176 "2017-05-17T20:33:54Z")
I also looked up the causes of anhedonia and it says it’s not always due to illness ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-children-selfish-act/786138/177 "2017-05-17T20:39:31Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > But this is subject to a somewhat similar effect to that which makes the OP’s argument silly, which I agree it is. ‘What’s a real argument for life having any meaning?’, but what’s a real argument for it not having any meaning? The OP just feels it doesn’t, some other people also don’t, most other people do (or act as if they do, and actions which imply it like building a family are at issue). Without seeming anti-intellectual, how much further can you really take it than that? > > But similarly you can always deconstruct generosity or altruism. You can argue people who have kids do it to validate themselves emotionally in the shorter run (hell of an expensive and time consuming way, but still it’s probably one elementl), or in the long run to have somebody likely to give a damn about them when they get old. But there’s no denying your point either: not having kids can be a way to focus more money and attention on oneself now. > > As disclaimer I have grown kids I think highly of. I’m glad they’re around, not excluding looking to if I last long enough to become weak and helpless. Is it _why_ we had them? No that wasn’t the thinking, to the extent there was actual thinking, at the time. 🙂 But I’m satisfied with my life. It has ‘meaning’ to me. Besides if someone has a mental medical issue where they are a threat to harm themselves and I can help, I have limited concern for whether other people feel their lives have meaning. That really is the epitome of one’s own problem. I don’t knock anyone who chooses not to have kids…I’m pro-choice all the way, baby! 🙂 However, the OP was about selfishness…and I think, in general, people who choose not to have children in a modern nation generally do so for ‘selfish’ reasons…they are more concerned with their careers or just enjoying their lives and maybe their partners and perhaps pets. Basically, I don’t believe being ‘selfish’ is a bad thing, to be honest. YMMV, and I’m obviously painting with a very broad brush in all of the above. Not as ridiculously broad and misinformed as the OP, but still Tom Sawyer-esq in broadness. Gots to paint that fence, after all… ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-children-selfish-act/786138/178 "2017-05-17T21:09:21Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > It just seems like a cheap way of dismissing an author who has won quite a few awards in horror and who inspired the guy who created the TV show TRUE Detective. I just don’t get how people here can ignore the support for his work and as well as the reviews for the apparent genius of his nonfiction on amazon. > > Seems like event though he isn’t widely known, those who know say the insight is piercing. I doubt everyone who says that is suffering from the same thing he is. I was just looking for logic to undo him and not just write him off as ill It’s entirely reasonable to give him the recognition he deserves for his writing and creative contributions and still disagree with his world view that life has little/no meaning. Oh, and his “apparent genius” is apparent to you and others of similar mindset. I find it inane and self-indulgent. Try to understand something; just because a broken clock is right twice a day, it’s still a broken clock. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-children-selfish-act/786138/179 "2017-05-17T21:35:15Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > It just seems like a cheap way of dismissing an author who has won quite a few awards in horror and who inspired the guy who created the TV show TRUE Detective. I just don’t get how people here can ignore the support for his work and as well as the reviews for the apparent genius of his nonfiction on amazon. > > Seems like event though he isn’t widely known, those who know say the insight is piercing. I doubt everyone who says that is suffering from the same thing he is. I was just looking for logic to undo him and not just write him off as ill This is a weird sort of appeal to authority. It’s weird because: 1. Someone who is a good writer and television producer doesn’t necessarily have particular insight into the human condition. Are you seriously suggesting that we should believe this guy’s philosophy because his work has good amazon reviews? 2. There are plenty of examples of brilliant creators who were also mentally ill. Sylvia Plath was a brilliant poet, and she also was seriously troubled and killed herself. The two aren’t really related, and it isn’t dismissing someone’s talent to point out that they might be suffering from a lack of certain neurotransmitters. I also think that you’re missing the point. People aren’t necessarily dismissing whoever this author is. They’re dismissing your argument, which they have pointed out is bad and circular. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-children-selfish-act/786138/180 "2017-05-17T23:18:12Z")
I would say that if you’re complaining about life having no meaning and rejecting children because of it then you’ve missed the point. There is one command that nature has given all living creatures, reproduce. Children ARE what gives life meaning. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-children-selfish-act/786138.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-children-selfish-act/786138.md?page=10)