# Is having kids ethical? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 15, 2010, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817 "2010-09-15T05:04:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/41 "2010-09-15T20:33:05Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > > [@kanicbird](#): > > > > Not having kids brings suffering and misery to humanity. We are made to love each other and have children that we love. Alone the way the genders divided and became much independent, instead of interdependent, functioning as individuals instead of family. But family is the basic unit of humanity, and we were never meant to operate outside that family unit, family includes children. > > > > Things like scaring people from their hearts desire, to have family/children is scaring people from experiencing Love and closeness and intimacy that we all need. Scaring people from having children is a great evil, especially because there is a limited time for women to have them and they might live way beyond that point having the longing to be a mother but it would be too late. > > Much as I love kids, and am glad that I had them, I recognize that people are diverse that that people can be as happy not having kids as I am having them. And trying to intimidate people into having kids they don’t really want is as bad as trying to scare people who do want kids into not having them - and much more prevalent in our society. I don’t think the point is whether having kids will make YOU (the parent) happy. For some people it will, for some it won’t. Some people should have children, some shouldn’t. Everyone should decide for himself/herself. But I think it’s a bad argument to say that NOBODY should have children because the children themselves will wish they had never been born. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/42 "2010-09-15T21:00:47Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Much as I love kids, and am glad that I had them, I recognize that people are diverse that that people can be as happy not having kids as I am having them. And trying to intimidate people into having kids they don’t really want is as bad as trying to scare people who do want kids into not having them - and much more prevalent in our society. People are different and some may not be ready for kids, but they should be encouraged to explore the path that love has for them. So many people avoid love because they think it’s sinful, and that delay could take them past childbearing years. We as a society have delayed love, by frighting kids with talk of teenage pregnancies, STD’s and pushes for abstinence and lengthening of education years. Also lying to them by making them carry around a doll that cries all the time, such as the ‘think it over baby’ doll, to make children seem a burden without the ability to feel the love and connectives of a mother and child. A major part of people not wanting children is societally imposed by fear. It is the removal of this fear that can only be a benefit to society. And the only way to limit children is through fear. ---
**Author:** ![EVERYNAMEISTAKEN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac8455/32.png) [@EVERYNAMEISTAKEN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EVERYNAMEISTAKEN)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/43 "2010-09-15T22:04:32Z")
Wow, I never expected this thread to get so long! > [@KinkiNipponTourist](#): > > Besides, if parents feel the unendurable horror of a child committing suicide, according to your logic that is the fault of the parents’ parents, who by giving birth to them have doomed them to a life of suffering. It’s not really about finding “fault” so much as it is doing the most we can to prevent the most suffering we can. And it is true that by not having kids, you just might be saving hundreds or even thousands of people from the suffering that is inherit in even the best of lives. > [@](#): > > I don’t have children, and spay/neuter my cats. I am in 100% agreement with you in terms of preventing the birth of stray kittens who statistically will suffer greatly and die young. And I like your views on how those of us without children can contribute otherwise. But taken to its extreme, who would we do nice things/create great works of art/provide homes for, if we shut down reproduction completely? > > Are you suggesting all reproduction stop, and we take care of what we have? I also see that you realize that human reproduction won’t stop despite your (and other organization’s) appeals. Is your suggestion that more of us reconsider the idea of having children, and instead work to take care of what we have? > > I hope I’m coming across reasonably clearly. I disagree with your idea, despite not having children of my own, but find the idea of a reasoned debate appealing. I think we should focus on taking care of what we have, but that’s not really the point I was trying to make. Go to any emergency room, and you will see the kind of suffering that your kids might be subjected to. You can say there’s a chance they might not be, and this is true, but there is also a chance that they will be. IF you have them. If you don’t have them, then they will certainly not be subjected to it, but there is no avoiding the possibility that they might be if you do. This is true regardless of how much money you have or how good looking you think they will likely be. Anyone can be in a horrible car wreck at a young age and live most of their life paralyzed. Anyone can have some accident that causes them to become blind or deaf. Anyone can be raped or violently assaulted. Anyone can end up having severe acne or diabetes or cancer. And even the best of lives still have quite a bit of suffering - even everyday suffering such as headaches and stomach aches all add up to a person’s quota. ---
**Author:** ![EVERYNAMEISTAKEN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac8455/32.png) [@EVERYNAMEISTAKEN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EVERYNAMEISTAKEN)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/44 "2010-09-15T22:05:38Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > I don’t think the point is whether having kids will make YOU (the parent) happy. For some people it will, for some it won’t. Some people should have children, some shouldn’t. Everyone should decide for himself/herself. > > But I think it’s a bad argument to say that NOBODY should have children because the children themselves will wish they had never been born. That’s not what I’m saying at all… ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/45 "2010-09-15T22:08:46Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > > [@Eonwe](#): > > > > Why then does the bad erase the good? > > As for myself, I wouldn’t say “erase”. Outweigh would be more appropriate. > Your average life will probably have about as many instants of blissful contentment as of soul-crushing despair, and if you’re lucky you’ll have about as many periods of feeling good as periods that just suck. However there’ll long bouts of tedious boredom, stressful worry and simple weltschmerz in between either extremes. And then there’re the times when you feel absolutely nothing - no good, no bad, just nothing ; which is no better than not living at all and therefore also somewhat counts against the positive aspects of being alive. > > You can also do the math on a daily basis : you’ll be sleeping around 8 hours a day and working 8 more. Working is always a drag, and sleeping doesn’t count. Which leaves 8 hours of free time which will be spent either having fun, having suck, or humdrum day-to-day tedium. Even if those 8 hours are pure enjoyment, every day of every week (and what a spectacularly happy life that would be), it’d still barely cover the work part. You do realize that for many, if not most, people, this isn’t the case. Soul-crushing depression and apathy isn’t the norm for most people. There’s something really wrong with your daily life; your job and mental state can be changed with help. Plus you say you have people who really care about you that you wouldn’t want to hurt. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/46 "2010-09-15T22:10:00Z")
Well, looks like all the rational positions have been staked out already, so I’ll just chime in and say that I don’t see how the supposition that to ‘impose life on someone else and force that suffering upon them is unethical’ is either rational or ‘ethical’ (whatever that term is supposed to mean). To ‘impose life’ is to grant a chance. To deny life would be to remove all chance or choice…to basically decide for someone (or for another living entity), and remove all chance or choice. To me, that is clearly as ‘unethical’ as you can get, since you are assuming you know best for not only yourself, not only for the being or person you are denying life too, but for all of the potential descendants in the future. Certainly I’m all for people making a conscious choice to have children or not have them…that’s their look out, and if they don’t want to propagate their genes, or experience the joys and pains of parenthood, well, that’s up to them. But to state that it’s moral and ethical to NOT have children (and, by extension, for no one else too…and to take it to it’s logical conclusion of ALL life) is, well, silly. -XT ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/47 "2010-09-15T22:13:39Z")
> [@EVERYNAMEISTAKEN](#): > > I contend that life brings with it much suffering, and that for this reason to impose life on someone else and force that suffering upon them is unethical. There is good in life, but this good does not erase the bad. Even if someone “brings it on themselves” because of their own ignorance or inexperience, it is still the fault of whoever gave them life, because had they not done that, the person would not be experiencing that suffering. > > That’s my opinion. I used to think having kids was ethical but I found this site which changed my whole opinion: [http://moralchildfree.tripod.com](http://moralchildfree.tripod.com) Huh. I don’t think my 8 year-old has “suffered” a bit, though she may claim otherwise: “Remember when you got mad and didn’t let me watch _Doctor Who_, Daddy? I was suffering _then_!” ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/48 "2010-09-15T22:16:32Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > That position is called antinatalism. There are good arguments for it, and it tends to make people fairly uncomfortable when you flesh it out, but it doesn’t really mean much. Absent a big rock hitting the earth people aren’t going to stop breeding. > > You can take it further, too. If you accept antinatalism you can argue that it would be moral to take active steps to cause the extinction of mankind. Because if we are allowed to continue our technological progress there is a risk, however slight, that humanity will colonize the stars. Think of the billions, possibly trillions of humans stretching out for 100 billion years into the future. That’s a lot of suffering that could be prevented if we act now. > > I’ll be in my volcano lair. And you may as well kill all the animals too - imagine all their suffering, and them too dumb to know they can be noble by offing themselves! ETA: Or, what **Rune** said. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/49 "2010-09-15T22:21:23Z")
> [@EVERYNAMEISTAKEN](#): > > I contend that life brings with it much suffering, and that for this reason to impose life on someone else and force that suffering upon them is unethical. There is good in life, but this good does not erase the bad. Even if someone “brings it on themselves” because of their own ignorance or inexperience, it is still the fault of whoever gave them life, because had they not done that, the person would not be experiencing that suffering. > > That’s my opinion. I used to think having kids was ethical but I found this site which changed my whole opinion: [http://moralchildfree.tripod.com](http://moralchildfree.tripod.com) Heh, that site is sorta like Buddhism without the whole “gain enlightenment” part - like they got the First Noble Truth, but forgot to look up the other three. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/50 "2010-09-15T22:26:28Z")
So reach the conclusion that having a child is unethical, one must stake a claim on one of these positions: 1. that it’s too likely that their life will be more bad than good to take the risk of bearing them. 2. that any bad at all is too much bad, regardless of how much good there is. One stubbed toe devalues the life as a whole. Most people won’t accept 2, but if they did anti-natalism is a shoo-in (and murdering everyone as soon as possible is an ethical mandate). Believing 1 is easier, depending on how unfortunate your circumstances are; however compelling arguments can be made (with examples) that people tend not to think that their lives aren’t worth living, despite what _you_think about it. However if despite those arguments one still retains the firm belief that their child is doomed to a life of suffering (perhaps the kid would have some horrific disease), then in that case it would be unethical for them to continue on and have the kid. For a not-too-out-there example of the latter, I gather that some people think it would be unethical to bear kids with their siblings due to increased risk of defects due to recessive genes. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/51 "2010-09-15T22:27:15Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Well, my parents decided not to have any kids. So, there’s that. Only to have someone poke a hole in a condom that cold December night. You’re welcome! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/52 "2010-09-15T22:55:01Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > People are different and some may not be ready for kids, but they should be encouraged to explore the path that love has for them. So many people avoid love because they think it’s sinful, and that delay could take them past childbearing years. We as a society have delayed love, by frighting kids with talk of teenage pregnancies, STD’s and pushes for abstinence and lengthening of education years. Also lying to them by making them carry around a doll that cries all the time, such as the ‘think it over baby’ doll, to make children seem a burden without the ability to feel the love and connectives of a mother and child. > > A major part of people not wanting children is societally imposed by fear. It is the removal of this fear that can only be a benefit to society. And the only way to limit children is through fear. You think the effort to keep kids too young to have kids from having them is preventing them from wanting to have them when it is appropriate? Have any evidence, or even examples, of this? No Dopers I can remember who don’t want kids have given this as a reason. Taking longer to finish school - and the need to get established in a job, are both reasons I’ve seen. My daughter’s PhD advisor didn’t have a kid until she got tenure. I don’t know what it is like now, but my mother and my wife’s mother both had a hard time having kids, and they both were under a lot of pressure to produce. (Which was good for us, since neither of them gave us any grief. Plus, we were quick about it. 🙂 ) But today reasons not to have kids seem to be self-imposed, and not coming from social pressure, except indirectly. Hell, a living wage so that it was more possible for one parent to stay home a few years with the kids would do a lot to ease the pressure, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/53 "2010-09-15T23:00:54Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > There’s a reason attempting to scare people into not having kids is not prevelant in our society - namely, that to most people “antinatalism” would be considered laughably silly. The vast majority of people do not consider being alive a bad thing! 😃 Once you get to a certain age, you start to wonder how the hell people are going to make it through the next 50 years. When I see predictions for 2050, I worry about my kids and as yet unborn grandkids - I’ll be dead, most likely. However, that is age speaking - I was in college in the early '70s where nearly every SF story I read had the world of 2000 as an ecological and overpopulated wasteland. Didn’t bother me a bit, and it turned out I was right and the doomsayers were wrong. Anyone not having kids then because of the inevitable disaster would have been shortchanging them and their kids. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/54 "2010-09-15T23:06:40Z")
> [@EVERYNAMEISTAKEN](#): > > I think we should focus on taking care of what we have, but that’s not really the point I was trying to make. Go to any emergency room, and you will see the kind of suffering that your kids might be subjected to. You can say there’s a chance they might not be, and this is true, but there is also a chance that they will be. IF you have them. If you don’t have them, then they will certainly not be subjected to it, but there is no avoiding the possibility that they might be if you do. > > This is true regardless of how much money you have or how good looking you think they will likely be. Anyone can be in a horrible car wreck at a young age and live most of their life paralyzed. Anyone can have some accident that causes them to become blind or deaf. Anyone can be raped or violently assaulted. Anyone can end up having severe acne or diabetes or cancer. And even the best of lives still have quite a bit of suffering - even everyday suffering such as headaches and stomach aches all add up to a person’s quota. If I had listened to you before having kids, I would have missed out on so much of their joy - and we’ve been through the teenage years already. As it happened, they had the odd cold and pain and times of unhappiness, but never anything horrible. I suppose you could say we bet on their happiness, and we won big. As for you, don’t you realize that you can get in a car crash, you can be assaulted, you can lose your mind or your abilities, you can become unemployed and starve? If you understand why you don’t give up, you might understand why people make the bet that their kids will be happy. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/55 "2010-09-15T23:08:33Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > > [@Malthus](#): > > > > There’s a reason attempting to scare people into not having kids is not prevelant in our society - namely, that to most people “antinatalism” would be considered laughably silly. The vast majority of people do not consider being alive a bad thing! 😃 > > Once you get to a certain age, you start to wonder how the hell people are going to make it through the next 50 years. When I see predictions for 2050, I worry about my kids and as yet unborn grandkids - I’ll be dead, most likely. However, that is age speaking - I was in college in the early '70s where nearly every SF story I read had the world of 2000 as an ecological and overpopulated wasteland. Didn’t bother me a bit, and it turned out I was right and the doomsayers were wrong. Anyone not having kids then because of the inevitable disaster would have been shortchanging them and their kids. My parent’s generation lived through a doomsday scenario. My in-laws, for example, lived in Ukraine - they grew up during WW2, dodging Nazi and Soviet death squads and hiding from battling armies in a sort of surreal apocalyptic wasteland, to hear them describe it. It happens. It is happening right now to some. No doubt it will happen in the future to others. ---
**Author:** ![EVERYNAMEISTAKEN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac8455/32.png) [@EVERYNAMEISTAKEN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EVERYNAMEISTAKEN)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/56 "2010-09-15T23:43:03Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If I had listened to you before having kids, I would have missed out on so much of their joy - and we’ve been through the teenage years already. As it happened, they had the odd cold and pain and times of unhappiness, but never anything horrible. I suppose you could say we bet on their happiness, and we won big. > > As for you, don’t you realize that you can get in a car crash, you can be assaulted, you can lose your mind or your abilities, you can become unemployed and starve? If you understand why you don’t give up, you might understand why people make the bet that their kids will be happy. Of course I realize that. I don’t see what “giving up” has to do with anything. If you are referring to suicide, I have already stated before that suicide does not end pain but multiplies it. You don’t know what could happen to your kids in the future. What makes you think they are immune from the horrors of the world? They aren’t. And you likely don’t know of everything they’ve been through either. Everyone always acts like they gave their kids perfect lives, when most parents I know treat their kids like absolute crap. Not to mention how every time their kid experiences suffering, that “wasn’t their fault” but every bit of a joy in their life and every “positive trait” can be directly traced back to them. EVERYONE suffers in their life. This includes happy people. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/57 "2010-09-15T23:44:31Z")
> [@EVERYNAMEISTAKEN](#): > > Wow, I never expected this thread to get so long! Well, that’s what being a parent is like - you never know. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/58 "2010-09-16T00:21:40Z")
> [@EVERYNAMEISTAKEN](#): > > Of course I realize that. I don’t see what “giving up” has to do with anything. If you are referring to suicide, I have already stated before that suicide does not end pain but multiplies it. > > You don’t know what could happen to your kids in the future. What makes you think they are immune from the horrors of the world? They aren’t. And you likely don’t know of everything they’ve been through either. Everyone always acts like they gave their kids perfect lives, when most parents I know treat their kids like absolute crap. > > Not to mention how every time their kid experiences suffering, that “wasn’t their fault” but every bit of a joy in their life and every “positive trait” can be directly traced back to them. > > EVERYONE suffers in their life. This includes happy people. I never claimed their lives are perfect - nobody’s life is perfect. However I suspect they both would say that they on the whole had good lives, with more joy than suffering. They are also both grown up and out of the house - and are eager to talk to us all the time, so I don’t think they feel they were raised badly. In fact they are at that stage of their lives where their parents start getting smarter. Not everyone has good parents, but I think a majority of kids we know do. Oddly, the kids we know who suffer the most were adopted by their parents, and they suffer because of a bad prenatal environment. Still they suffer less than they would if they had been left with a drunk or addicted mother, I suspect. As for you, you appear to believe in a version of the 3 laws of thermodynamics - you can’t win in life, you can’t break even in life, and getting out of the game makes things worse. I don’t. Let’s forget what you are going to do about it - do you think that the rest of your life will, on balance, be miserable? BTW, there have been studies comparing happiness, and people who you’d think should be miserable because of illness are actually quite happy. It appears to be more a matter of personality than a matter of circumstance. Of course each of us will suffer at least a bit, but each of us will also be happy more than just a bit. As Roger Miller said, “You can’t roller skate in a buffalo herd, but you can be happy if you’ve a mind to.” ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/59 "2010-09-16T00:22:49Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > You think the effort to keep kids too young to have kids from having them is preventing them from wanting to have them when it is appropriate? Have any evidence, or even examples, of this? No Dopers I can remember who don’t want kids have given this as a reason. many women who desire to have children, but are beyond childbearing age. > [@](#): > > Taking longer to finish school - and the need to get established in a job, are both reasons I’ve seen. My daughter’s PhD advisor didn’t have a kid until she got tenure. Same thing is Eve was decieve by the serpent, desirable for gaining wisdom, along with beauty and good for food (one less mouth to feed). > [@](#): > > I don’t know what it is like now, but my mother and my wife’s mother both had a hard time having kids, and they both were under a lot of pressure to produce. (Which was good for us, since neither of them gave us any grief. Plus, we were quick about it. 🙂 ) It should not be pressure but desire, the motivation is wrong here. > [@](#): > > But today reasons not to have kids seem to be self-imposed, and not coming from social pressure, except indirectly. Hell, a living wage so that it was more possible for one parent to stay home a few years with the kids would do a lot to ease the pressure, I think. At one time one parent could provide for needs and the child’s requirement for love. Now it is that two incomes did the same as onje used to, except the child does not get the continual Love as before. yes s/he may have a PlayStation 5.1 but it is Love of a parent s/her needs and is being denied. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/60 "2010-09-16T00:48:10Z")
**Voyager** made an analogy to betting and that’s quite right. The difference between living your own life and having children is the difference between betting with your own money versus someone else’s. Everyone suffers and dies, leaving behind distraught loved ones. The only question is how much suffering there will be on the way to death. In stark contrast, the unborn aren’t inconvenienced whatsoever by not being born. We know this because we were unborn for 13 billion years. I’m an atheist, but antinatalism is even more urgent if you believe in punishment during the afterlife. It’s quite possible, especially in this era, that your children will stray from the truth and be burnt in everlasting hellfire. This line of thinking even has Biblicial support: Matthew 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. > [@xtisme](#): > > … I don’t see how the supposition that to ‘impose life on someone else and force that suffering upon them is unethical’ is either rational or ‘ethical’ (whatever that term is supposed to mean). To ‘impose life’ is to grant a chance. To deny life would be to remove all chance or choice…to basically decide for someone (or for another living entity), and remove all chance or choice. To me, that is clearly as ‘unethical’ as you can get, since you are assuming you know best for not only yourself, not only for the being or person you are denying life too, but for all of the potential descendants in the future. This paragraph doesn’t make sense unless you posit a horde of souls eager to be implanted in the newest embryo and not being born causes them to suffer. And if that is true it raises interesting implications about the responsibilities of fertile women and reproductive technology. > [@JohnT](#): > > And you may as well kill all the animals too - imagine all their suffering, and them too dumb to know they can be noble by offing themselves! There is a tremendous amount of suffering in the natural world. But also such joy! When a lion rips out the throat of a gazelle she is very happy indeed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817.md?page=4)