# Is having kids ethical? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 15, 2010, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817 "2010-09-15T05:04:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![EVERYNAMEISTAKEN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac8455/32.png) [@EVERYNAMEISTAKEN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EVERYNAMEISTAKEN)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/101 "2010-09-17T20:56:33Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Because the alternative (nonexistance) is worse. I spent a lot of time not existing before I was conceived and I never had any problem with it. > [@Isabel8](#): > > Wow, I almost never post here, but I am SO GLAD I saw this topic! I don’t know that I have much to contribute, other than to say thank you for bringing it up. I completely agree with the “antinatalist” viewpoint and assumed I must be the only person on earth to think this way. I had no idea there was even a word for it. > > It seems blatantly obvious to me that experiencing the good parts of life isn’t worth having to deal with the bad parts, and that life is a bad thing overall. But this just isn’t an opinion you can express in polite company without being seen as crazy. > > > [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > > > Nonexistant entities having feelings and opinions notwithstanding, I contend that to _deny_ life to someone else and prevent them from dealing with suffering – (as Buddha tells us, “Life is Suffering”) – is more unethical. > > This is something that’s always confused me about Buddhism. If you truly believe that “Life is suffering”, how could you possibly force another person to live? I wish I could be someone who were smart enough to know these things inherently. I had to have them explained and justified to me by someone else. I can tell what is right when it is explained by other people but until that happens I’m at a loss. Guess I’ll never be a revolutionary. I’m glad you saw my post and that it helped you feel less alone in your beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/102 "2010-09-17T22:42:26Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > > [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > > > Because the alternative (nonexistance) is worse. > > How would you, or anyone, know ? You ever nonexisted ? 😉 Does it matter? I know I don’t want to nonexist just like I know I don’t want to take a .45 to the head or an ax blade to the neck even though I don’t actually know what it would be like. On the other hand, I’ve suffered greatly in an ER fairly recently and it just made the good things that much sweeter. Weird, huh? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/103 "2010-09-17T23:10:04Z")
> [@theR](#): > > > [@Kobal2](#): > > > > How would you, or anyone, know ? You ever nonexisted ? 😉 > > Does it matter? I know I don’t want to nonexist just like I know I don’t want to take a .45 to the head or an ax blade to the neck even though I don’t actually know what it would be like. > > On the other hand, I’ve suffered greatly in an ER fairly recently and it just made the good things that much sweeter. Weird, huh? It’s a pretty common misconception to conflate pain with death/nonexistence. Pain, we all can agree, is bad. Lots of ways of death look pretty painful, we also can all agree. But just becaue the road is bumpy doesn’t mean the destination is similarly unpleasant. Personally, I see nothing wrong with the idea of being dead. If I _did_ have a problem with it, then my life would suck; I forsee with absolute certainty that 99.99999999% of my future will be spent dead (making certain presumptions about the length of the timeline), and forseeing that that _much_ of my future will be spent in a place I have a problem with would be incredibly worrying. In fact, death is so non-frightening to me that there’s only three reasons I’m not dead right now: 1. My life is not, currently, unhappy on average. 2. My family would be disturbed if I died before them, and moreso if it was by my own hand. 3. I don’t like that pain stuff. Note that all three conditions could change: 3 is already basically avoidable. 1 could change if I got some horrible agonizing disease with no cure or relief. And 2 will half-correct itself in time, since nobody really expects me to outlive my neices and nephews (though suicide might still bother them, assuming I don’t outlive _everyone_ or lose contact). So yeah - page me in sixty years, when my diabetes has gone critical and I’m blind and can barely move and all my family is dead. Death already doesn’t look particularly bad, but at that point it might look downright enticing. What does this have to do with deciding to have children? Well first, it’s no crime to them _not_ to have them. To put it jokingly, they won’t know what they’re missing! However, if one does have selfish desires towards having kids (perhaps you want a pet but are allergic to cats), then there’s similarly no ethical obligation _not_ to have them, unless you think there’s a serious risk that their lives would suck. If you _do_ think that their lives would suck, then condition 1 applies pre-emptively and it’s immoral to have the kids. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/104 "2010-09-18T02:28:53Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I meant the unconscious part of sleeping doesn’t count :). The going to sleep and lazing around are indeed awesome, but to me they’re part of the metaphorical last 8 hours. As are insomnia and rude awakenings. Balance in all things. > I’ll take your word on the dreaming - I very rarely do myself, or remember I did which amounts to the same thing. I don’t know that I’d call dream memories particularly pleasant (or unpleasant) though. They’re… there, I guess 😛 It’s just another bit of difference and diversity that adds flavor to the day, I guess. I also only get eight hours of sleep per night if you count the time lazing around and blissfully not getting up. And insomnia and rude awakenings are rare for me. I also nap very lightly and frequently, sometimes dozing in and out of consciousness for an hour or two, and I certainly can’t write that off as time spent entirely unconscious; I spend a good deal of it barely conscious enough to enjoy it. > [@](#): > > Truly you and I are different beasts :). Out of curiosity, what do you do ? I do technical work in theatre. Generally, I do more hands-on stuff (hanging and focusing lights, mostly) than design work (both set and lights), but I’d like to move a little more into design work in the next few years. Right now specifically, I’m the head electrician for a small touring show. > [@](#): > > I agree - there’re lots of little things in life that make it pleasant. I enjoy them as much as the next bloke. But then I get to do my taxes, or it’s laundry day, gotta pick up the groceries, gotta do the dishes, repair the computer, clean the apartment, my back’ll start aching… and then the thought hits me that there ain’t gonna be more episodes of _Firefly_ ever again. And you want I should be fine with that ?! 😛 > > So yeah, passing time in various ways is indeed enjoyable - but that’s just that, passing time. Do you think an unborn, virgin consciousness would jump with glee if you told it “Whelp, you’re going to have to deal with disillusion, rejection, violence, remorse or regrets, lack of purpose, Kafkaian absurdity and growing old - but hey, you can read Gaiman and have a pint with the fellas !” ? > Well, maybe it would at that. You know babies - zero attention span. But to me, right now, that’s not enough. Ask me again in a month, or six months ago, and maybe I’ll even agree that they make life worth livin’, twice ! 🙂 Which would of course be a cue for The Suck to rear its head again, because it too has a sense of humour. It sounds like you’re just passing the time. Why do that? Why not pick something special, something that you can do truly for its own sake, because you love it, and do that in your spare time? Paint, or garden, or travel, or run, or teach children, or something like that? Something that you love, that you can do for no reason other than that you love it, and let it give your life a little meaning that way. I know that I’m unhappiest when I’m not busy because I get that sense of purposelessness, so I try to stay busy most of the time. ---
**Author:** ![EVERYNAMEISTAKEN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac8455/32.png) [@EVERYNAMEISTAKEN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EVERYNAMEISTAKEN)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/105 "2010-09-18T05:22:38Z")
I am one of the luckiest people in the world. My life is better than most people’s. But I have experienced: - Terrible insomnia, so much so that I’ve spent days of my life like a zombie from tiredness - Severe acne so bad that it ruled over years of my life - Severe allergies - Tinnitus - Headaches, nausea, diarrhea - Housework (cleaning, cooking, laundry) - An abusive mother and emotionally abusive father - Being embarrassed, sad, depressed, angry, scared, bored, lonely, stressed - Regrets over past decisions that took over my entire life and were all I thought about for years And that’s just the beginning. Every day brings new suffering in some form. Today, for example, I experienced: - Long periods of boredom - Hunger (not bad enough that I was bothered to go to the store, but still not fun) - Moderate regret over recent financial decisions and other things - Exhaustion and dizziness as a result of overworking myself (I actually felt like I wanted to vomit) - I lost something important to me and had to spend 30 minutes looking for it - Pretty bad bug bites - Frustration with other people on a project we were working on - Worry over certain defects in my appearance - Constipation - Loneliness - Frustration over my tinnitus - Laundry, which was not fun This is just what comes off at the top of my head. This is one day in one of the best lives in the world. I’m not trying to appear ungrateful; believe me, I do recognize how lucky I am. But a good life compared to other lives is still not a good life. Everyone will experience suffering, even if it’s minor. Now, granted, it wasn’t all bad. I watched an entertaining movie, I had a nice meal, I finally found the thing I was looking for, I listened to some of my favorite music, I played some computer games and had fun doing so, I did a project that despite frustrations with the other team members I was overall happy with the result of, and I reconnected with an old friend. But had I never been created, I would not miss these things, because people who are never created simply do not exist; they do not have the ability to miss anything. Some people may say that I brought these things on myself, but I know I certainly didn’t try to. It is human nature to avoid suffering. Even if someone brings suffering on themselves as a result of their own naivete or because they simply didn’t know any better, it all could have been avoided if their parents had decided not to reproduce. There is good in the world and in life, but this does not erase the bad. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/106 "2010-09-18T18:13:55Z")
Nah. If you’re a Buddhist, or have other training, you realize that suffering is completely unnecessary. But leaving that aside, freedom of choice is more important than lack of suffering. By not having kids, you take away their freedom of choice, the most important things they have. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/107 "2010-09-18T18:58:10Z")
> [@EVERYNAMEISTAKEN](#): > > I’m hoping someone would not seriously consider having kids because “they can always opt out.” Most people I know would be very upset if their kids committed suicide. Suicide doesn’t end pain, it multiplies it. You’re contradicting yourself. The kind of parents who think their kids can always opt out would be the same ones that would be happy for someone who ended their own life to end suffering. Whereas the kind of parent who would be devastated by the loss of their child is the same one who believes that being alive has much more value than the prevention of suffering. ---
**Author:** ![Isabel8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/48db29/32.png) [@Isabel8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isabel8)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/108 "2010-09-20T05:13:02Z")
> [@pbbth](#): > > I can’t imagine how awful life must be for someone to believe that life is nothing but toil and no matter how many good things happen it is still full of suck and no one should be brought into the world ever again. Seriously, have you never had a piece of chocolate cake? Have you never laid in bed and listened to the rhythmic sound of your lover breathing as you drifted off to sleep? Have you never built a snowman? Have you never seen [this youtube video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb9RJlHvjXQ&feature=fvst)? Never snorgled a kitten’s belly? If someone told me tomorrow that I had to endure several hours of torture a day but after that I got to eat some cake, pet a kitty, build a snowman and make love to my husband I would totally consider that a win. Considering that I can do all those things (weather permitting) without the hours of torture I think my life might just be perfect and I thank all that is holy in this world that my parents didn’t try to spare me from the horrors of life. It’s funny, I must be the exact opposite of you. It seems to me that the joys of life are relatively trivial things like the cake & kittens that you mention, while some of the pains of life are truly horrific things like serious accidents & diseases. I look at the two sides of the equation and they don’t even come close to balancing. But, I suppose trivial is a matter of opinion, and cake & kittens obviously aren’t trivial to you if you’re willing to endure torture to have them. I wish I could relate to that perspective, but it’s completely foreign to me. Sometimes I think about the possibility that I could get into a car accident any day and end up disfigured, disabled, or paralyzed for life. I can’t imagine any joy that could ever be wonderful enough to make up for that possibility. I feel foolish for remaining alive, a sitting duck for all sorts of horrible misfortunes that I am powerless to prevent. I also feel that the good parts of life don’t really count, in a way, since I wouldn’t miss them if I didn’t exist. To me, even the happiest life imaginable wouldn’t be any better than nonexistence. Schopenhauer wrote that happiness is just the absence of pain, and I think I agree with that. I guess that’s why I’m against creating new people. ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/109 "2010-09-20T08:47:39Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > > [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](#): > > > > I wasn’t talking about the universe as an entity, but if there is any other form of life out there inhabiting the universe it is probably better off not meeting us, particularly if it is less technologically advanced than us. > > Since this is never going to happen, it’s not relevant. We are not leaving this solar system. This is our home, and that is it. My descendants will live and die on Earth. We’re not even leaving this planet in substantial numbers. Mars would be a huge, huge accomplishment to put people on on a permanent basis, and anything further won’t be done. In the billion to one chance that some of our descendants DO leave this solar system, their civilization, and perhaps even biology, will be unrecognizable to us. They won’t be human in the sense we currently understand it. > > Adopting a stance of antinatalism 'cause you’re worried about what we’ll do to the hapless natives of 54 Piscium Gamma is very much like deciding you’re not going to go out to play golf because you’re worried you might be eaten by a velociraptor. It’s absurd. I disagree, if there was the will to colonise the galaxy we could do it, it wouldn’t be easy or cheap but it is technically possible. As with all human endeavours we probably won’t attempt it until it is almost too late. It’s not that I care about some hypothetical aliens, particularly, I was just using this as an example. It is difficult for me to express my general opinion of humanity outside the pit, but let me try to give you the polite version. Most people are ignorant, stupid and often rude. Society is beset by crime, low level antisocial behaviour and religious intolerance, not to mention the fact that we are beset by environmental problems and resource issues that are likely to result in more war and suffering in the not too distant future. The impact of all of these things could be reduced if not eliminated if there were less people. As the growth in population is increasing exponentially it is unlikely that this will happen any time soon. This will result in an increase in suffering over time as we fight over dwindling resources while choking on carbon dioxide and religious fanaticism. Thus the growth in population and hence having children can be seen to be directly linked to an increase in global suffering and is hence immoral. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/110 "2010-09-20T12:24:20Z")
I don’t follow the premise that causing pain is “unethical,” especially in the context of indirectly causing pain. I have a hard time understanding a system of ethics in which a surgeon would be regarded as unethical. Clearly she is causing pain, even if it a situation in which the pain is only going to be experienced post-surgically and treated with medications. I have a hard time regarding a parent as unethical if they are causing their child emotional distress by refusing to buy them each of the toys they want as they walk through the store. Can you elaborate on this system of ethics to help me understand why I should even buy into the first bit, let alone follow you to the conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/111 "2010-09-20T14:41:56Z")
> [@Isabel8](#): > > > [@pbbth](#): > > > > I can’t imagine how awful life must be for someone to believe that life is nothing but toil and no matter how many good things happen it is still full of suck and no one should be brought into the world ever again. Seriously, have you never had a piece of chocolate cake? Have you never laid in bed and listened to the rhythmic sound of your lover breathing as you drifted off to sleep? Have you never built a snowman? Have you never seen [this youtube video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb9RJlHvjXQ&feature=fvst)? Never snorgled a kitten’s belly? If someone told me tomorrow that I had to endure several hours of torture a day but after that I got to eat some cake, pet a kitty, build a snowman and make love to my husband I would totally consider that a win. Considering that I can do all those things (weather permitting) without the hours of torture I think my life might just be perfect and I thank all that is holy in this world that my parents didn’t try to spare me from the horrors of life. > > It’s funny, I must be the exact opposite of you. > > It seems to me that the joys of life are relatively trivial things like the cake & kittens that you mention, while some of the pains of life are truly horrific things like serious accidents & diseases. I look at the two sides of the equation and they don’t even come close to balancing. > > But, I suppose trivial is a matter of opinion, and cake & kittens obviously aren’t trivial to you if you’re willing to endure torture to have them. I wish I could relate to that perspective, but it’s completely foreign to me. > > Sometimes I think about the possibility that I could get into a car accident any day and end up disfigured, disabled, or paralyzed for life. I can’t imagine any joy that could ever be wonderful enough to make up for that possibility. I feel foolish for remaining alive, a sitting duck for all sorts of horrible misfortunes that I am powerless to prevent. > > I also feel that the good parts of life don’t really count, in a way, since I wouldn’t miss them if I didn’t exist. To me, even the happiest life imaginable wouldn’t be any better than nonexistence. Schopenhauer wrote that happiness is just the absence of pain, and I think I agree with that. I guess that’s why I’m against creating new people. Reminds me of a Buddhist parable: > [@](#): > > Buddha told a parable in sutra: > > A man traveling across a field encountered a tiger. He fled, the tiger after him. Coming to a precipice, he caught hold of the root of a wild vine and swung himself down over the edge. The tiger sniffed at him from above. Trembling, the man looked down to where, far below, another tiger was waiting to eat him. Only the vine sustained him. > > Two mice, one white and one black, little by little started to gnaw away the vine. The man saw a luscious strawberry near him. Grasping the vine with one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other. How sweet it tasted! Dunno exactly what it is supposed to mean, but I’d guess it has something to do with living in the moment. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/112 "2010-09-20T14:58:19Z")
> [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](#): > > I disagree, if there was the will to colonise the galaxy we could do it, it wouldn’t be easy or cheap but it is technically possible. It’s not going to happen. Even admitting it’s hard, you’re underestimating the difficult by a factor of ten thousand. > [@](#): > > Most people are ignorant, stupid and often rude… With due respect, I believe you’ve deluded yourself. Most people are objectively none of those things. Society is NOT beset by crime in any sense that that statement would be meaningful; indeed, if you live in any industrialized nation, you are likely experiencing an era of unusually low crime. We do not have any more environmental or resource problems than we have been before, and are equipped with more knowledge and tools than ever to deal with them. Frankly, things in general have never been better. You are remarkably lucky to have been born when and where you were and it is nothing but ignorance to believe otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/113 "2010-09-20T15:02:00Z")
No of course not. In fact having kids is the more ethical choice. Humanity must perpetuate itself suffering or no suffering. In fact for most board members as they have comfortable lives suffering will be minimal compared to the contribution new people will put to the economy and society. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/114 "2010-09-20T15:03:46Z")
> [@EVERYNAMEISTAKEN](#): > > I am one of the luckiest people in the world. My life is better than most people’s. But I have experienced: > > - Terrible insomnia, so much so that I’ve spent days of my life like a zombie from tiredness > - Severe acne so bad that it ruled over years of my life > - Severe allergies > - Tinnitus > - Headaches, nausea, diarrhea > - Housework (cleaning, cooking, laundry) > - An abusive mother and emotionally abusive father > - Being embarrassed, sad, depressed, angry, scared, bored, lonely, stressed > - Regrets over past decisions that took over my entire life and were all I thought about for years > > And that’s just the beginning. Every day brings new suffering in some form. > > Today, for example, I experienced: > > - Long periods of boredom > - Hunger (not bad enough that I was bothered to go to the store, but still not fun) > - Moderate regret over recent financial decisions and other things > - Exhaustion and dizziness as a result of overworking myself (I actually felt like I wanted to vomit) > - I lost something important to me and had to spend 30 minutes looking for it > - Pretty bad bug bites > - Frustration with other people on a project we were working on > - Worry over certain defects in my appearance > - Constipation > - Loneliness > - Frustration over my tinnitus > - Laundry, which was not fun > > This is just what comes off at the top of my head. This is one day in one of the best lives in the world. I’m not trying to appear ungrateful; believe me, I do recognize how lucky I am. But a good life compared to other lives is still not a good life. Everyone will experience suffering, even if it’s minor. > > Now, granted, it wasn’t all bad. I watched an entertaining movie, I had a nice meal, I finally found the thing I was looking for, I listened to some of my favorite music, I played some computer games and had fun doing so, I did a project that despite frustrations with the other team members I was overall happy with the result of, and I reconnected with an old friend. But had I never been created, I would not miss these things, because people who are never created simply do not exist; they do not have the ability to miss anything. > > Some people may say that I brought these things on myself, but I know I certainly didn’t try to. It is human nature to avoid suffering. Even if someone brings suffering on themselves as a result of their own naivete or because they simply didn’t know any better, it all could have been avoided if their parents had decided not to reproduce. > > There is good in the world and in life, but this does not erase the bad. Who cares? Its trivial and whining about it as suffering belies actual suffering by people with AIDS or getting carbombed in Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/115 "2010-09-20T16:31:29Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > No of course not. In fact having kids is the more ethical choice. Humanity must perpetuate itself suffering or no suffering. Why ? > [@](#): > > Who cares? Its trivial and whining about it as suffering belies actual suffering by people with AIDS or getting carbombed in Afghanistan. Ah, my old grandma’s “Finish your plate even if your belly hurts, there’s starving kids in Ethiopia”. Didn’t make much sense then, still doesn’t now. How does knowing there’s more fucked up existences out there make the one I actually live any less subjectively unpleasant, exactly ? Would their lives be better if I ate my veggies or pretended like I’m having lots of fun ? Does one only get to complain if one has AIDS ? Though I guess they should also stop whining, since they don’t know the Real pain of those who have AIDS \*and \*cancer \*and \*a toothache… ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/116 "2010-09-20T18:23:00Z")
> [@Isabel8](#): > > Sometimes I think about the possibility that I could get into a car accident any day and end up disfigured, disabled, or paralyzed for life. I can’t imagine any joy that could ever be wonderful enough to make up for that possibility. I feel foolish for remaining alive, a sitting duck for all sorts of horrible misfortunes that I am powerless to prevent. But these are only possibilities. They may not happen. In fact, they probably won’t happen. I can understand if one wonders about things things once in a while, but to agonize about this constantly strikes me as very strange. As you say, though not referring to me specifically, we are very different. I am aware that bad things might happen but I know that for the most part, they don’t. And when they do, they are temporary setbacks. I feel that my life is, in general, very good. It’s clearly a very different mindset from yours. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/117 "2010-09-20T19:18:59Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Ah, my old grandma’s “Finish your plate even if your belly hurts, there’s starving kids in Ethiopia”. Didn’t make much sense then, still doesn’t now. That isn’t really analogous to what Curtis LeMay said, and so I think maybe the point was missed, which in the context of the thread is sort of a metapoint; we’ve got people now really digging pretty deep, and getting amazingly creative, in trying to justify why their life is so very, very horrible that it’s unethical to have children. “Oh my God, I was briefly hungry and around 2 PM I was bored” is, you must admit, one hell of a lame reason. If in fact it was objectively the case that any children I were to have would be very likely to live a really horrible, nasty and miserable life, then deciding to have kids might be an interesting ethical issue. But the antinatalist olks here have established nothing of the sort, and are reduced to complaining about what any reasonable person would agree are trivialities. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/118 "2010-09-20T21:10:35Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > That isn’t really analogous to what Curtis LeMay said, and so I think maybe the point was missed, which in the context of the thread is sort of a metapoint; we’ve got people now really digging pretty deep, and getting amazingly creative, in trying to justify why their life is so very, very horrible that it’s unethical to have children. “Oh my God, I was briefly hungry and around 2 PM I was bored” is, you must admit, one hell of a lame reason. > > If in fact it was objectively the case that any children I were to have would be very likely to live a really horrible, nasty and miserable life, then deciding to have kids might be an interesting ethical issue. But the anti-natalist folks here have established nothing of the sort, and are reduced to complaining about what any reasonable person would agree are trivialities. I’m just objecting, very strongly at that, the notion that because people on the telly face some pretty graphic hardships, then the pain of someone who doesn’t is inconsequential or not real. A healthy person’s fear of death is just as real as a terminal cancer patient’s one, a raging toothache feels just as painful as a stab wound (in fact, having felt both, I’d rather take the knife), a “mere” heartbreak does feel like the world has ended and anhedonia/lassitude/ennui is just as shitty an emotion to feel on a daily basis as hunger. There’s no gradation in pain and discomfort - you either feel bad (for whatever reason) or you don’t. And when you do then your life is not pleasant or enjoyable, pretty much by definition. But the real reason **Curtis** ’s idiotic argument really gets my goat is because it’s one depressives will hear oh so very often. “Why are you unhappy, you have X, Y and Z going for you, you live in the best part of the world, Somalian kids would kill to have your life etc…”, like it’s all the depressive’s fault he feels rotten all the time and he should feel guilty about it on top. Fuck that noise. That’s not helping, that’s being part of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/119 "2010-09-20T21:39:26Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I’m just objecting, very strongly at that, the notion that because people on the telly face some pretty graphic hardships, then the pain of someone who doesn’t is inconsequential or not real. A healthy person’s fear of death is just as real as a terminal cancer patient’s one, a raging toothache feels just as painful as a stab wound (in fact, having felt both, I’d rather take the knife), a “mere” heartbreak does feel like the world has ended and anhedonia/lassitude/ennui is just as shitty an emotion to feel on a daily basis as hunger. > There’s no gradation in pain and discomfort - you either feel bad (for whatever reason) or you don’t. And when you do then your life is not pleasant or enjoyable, pretty much by definition. > > But the real reason **Curtis** ’s idiotic argument really gets my goat is because it’s one depressives will hear oh so very often. “Why are you unhappy, you have X, Y and Z going for you, you live in the best part of the world, Somalian kids would kill to have your life etc…”, like it’s all the depressive’s fault he feels rotten all the time and he should feel guilty about it on top. Fuck that noise. That’s not helping, that’s being part of the problem. Toothaches are bad - but temporary. We have evolved to forget the true extent of pain - or else no woman would have more than one kid. We measure our happiness or unhappiness against impossible to obtain ideals, and reminders of how much better we have it than lots of people might help to reset expectations to something reasonable. If you don’t want to have kids because you are convinced life is miserable, be my guest. No one should tell me that I shouldn’t have kids who can (and did) inherit our positive outlook on life, and who don’t bitch and moan about things. The point about children starving wherever is not that you eating your dinner is going to help them - Alan Sherman said that kids kept on starving in Europe and he got fat. It is that those kids would kill to have the problem of too much food on their plates. I suppose you are against sports programs also. Any high school or college football program will sucker kids in who might injure themselves and put themselves into pain - or even, rarely, die. Should we not fund programs which will inevitably hurt a few kids? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/120 "2010-09-20T21:44:13Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I’m just objecting, very strongly at that, the notion that because people on the telly face some pretty graphic hardships, then the pain of someone who doesn’t is inconsequential or not real. Who’re you objecting to, though? Heartbreak sucks. Frustration over _having to do laundry_, though? Come on. > [@](#): > > But the real reason **Curtis** ’s idiotic argument really gets my goat is because it’s one depressives… We aren’t dealing with people here who are suffering from clinical depression, a disease that cannot be talked out of. We’re talking about people advancing a ridiculous argument on an internet message board. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817.md?page=7)