# Is having kids ethical? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 15, 2010, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817 "2010-09-15T05:04:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/121 "2010-09-20T21:52:20Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > But the real reason **Curtis** ’s idiotic argument really gets my goat is because it’s one depressives… > > We aren’t dealing with people here who are suffering from clinical depression, a disease that cannot be talked out of. We’re talking about people advancing a ridiculous argument on an internet message board. Actually that sort of thing is annoying to hear if your problems are merely annoying, too. It’s just kind of annoying in general, in a ‘universal constant of annoyance’ sense. ---
**Author:** ![Isabel8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/48db29/32.png) [@Isabel8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isabel8)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/122 "2010-09-20T22:39:21Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > But these are only possibilities. They may not happen. In fact, they probably won’t happen. I can understand if one wonders about things things once in a while, but to agonize about this constantly strikes me as very strange. Just to clarify, I don’t agonize constantly. I am simply aware that there’s a nonzero possibility of a horrible accident happening, and for me, that’s enough to make life worse than the alternative. The way I see it, being alive, the probability of having a horrible accident is (let’s say) .00000001%. If I hadn’t been born, the probability would be 0%. Clearly, a 0% chance of getting into a horrible accident is better than a .00000001% chance, therefore, I would be better off if I hadn’t been born. I realize this must sound utterly bizarre and crazy to most people, but it’s honestly how I see things. ---
**Author:** ![Isabel8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/48db29/32.png) [@Isabel8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isabel8)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/123 "2010-09-20T22:44:10Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > That isn’t really analogous to what Curtis LeMay said, and so I think maybe the point was missed, which in the context of the thread is sort of a metapoint; we’ve got people now really digging pretty deep, and getting amazingly creative, in trying to justify why their life is so very, very horrible that it’s unethical to have children. “Oh my God, I was briefly hungry and around 2 PM I was bored” is, you must admit, one hell of a lame reason. The point being made is _not_ that life is horrible & miserable, therefore we should not have children. The point being made is that a life that contains _any amount_ of pain or unpleasant emotion could be seen as less preferable than nonexistence. Even if the pain is very minor (like boredom or brief hunger), even if the pain is very unlikely (like a car accident), it is still pain that a person wouldn’t have to endure had they not been born. When you have a child, you’re forcing an unknown amount of pain & negative emotions onto a person, and betting that he/she will find enough joy to make up for it. You, along with the rest of society, would also actively prevent that person from ending his/her life should he/she decide that the of amount joy isn’t worth the amount of pain. To put someone in that position seems unethical to me. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/124 "2010-09-20T22:52:04Z")
> [@Isabel8](#): > > Just to clarify, I don’t agonize constantly. I am simply aware that there’s a nonzero possibility of a horrible accident happening, and for me, that’s enough to make life worse than the alternative. > > The way I see it, being alive, the probability of having a horrible accident is (let’s say) .00000001%. If I hadn’t been born, the probability would be 0%. Clearly, a 0% chance of getting into a horrible accident is better than a .00000001% chance, therefore, I would be better off if I hadn’t been born. > > I realize this must sound utterly bizarre and crazy to most people, but it’s honestly how I see things. So you utterly discount the merit of possible good things? Suppose that there is a .0000001% chance that you will stumble onto a perpetual orgasmic bliss, that is exactly as wonderful an improvement to a person’s life as the accident is bad. (For convenience, you can’t get both bliss and the accident, and persons experiencing neither the bliss or the accident live a completely passive and precisely emotionless life, naturally enough.) So, for every population of 100000000 people, there will be one horrific accident and ten blissings - you are ten times more likely to be blissed than accidented, resulting in lives ten times more blissful than suffering-filled on average. Is your position that in that this scenario, it is still better not to have been born? ---
**Author:** ![Isabel8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/48db29/32.png) [@Isabel8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isabel8)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/125 "2010-09-20T23:38:44Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Is your position that in that this scenario, it is still better not to have been born? Yes, exactly. I do realize this is a matter of personal preference and that many people will feel differently. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/126 "2010-09-20T23:45:28Z")
> [@Isabel8](#): > > > [@begbert2](#): > > > > Is your position that in that this scenario, it is still better not to have been born? > > Yes, exactly. I do realize this is a matter of personal preference and that many people will feel differently. Okay, I was just checking. A _loooooong_ time earlier in the thread I pointed out that there are two possible ways at arriving at the conclusion that bearing children was immoral (the other being to _count_ the good and still think that the bad outweighs it): you’re just using the less-common approach. Um. I’m not sure that this is a good idea to ask this, or that I am even _allowed_ to ask this, even putting it delicately, but I’ll risk the warning: given your philosophy, why are you still alive? “The first day of the rest of your life” and all that… ---
**Author:** ![Isabel8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/48db29/32.png) [@Isabel8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isabel8)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/127 "2010-09-21T00:19:39Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Um. I’m not sure that this is a good idea to ask this, or that I am even _allowed_ to ask this, even putting it delicately, but I’ll risk the warning: given your philosophy, why are you still alive? “The first day of the rest of your life” and all that… No problem, it’s a perfectly reasonable question. I definitely think that suicide would be in my own best interest. I remain alive for the same reason that people everywhere irrationally choose to do things that are immediately enjoyable but bad in the long term. It’s easy to stay alive in the same way that it’s easy to maintain any other bad habit: procrastination, smoking, eating too much junk food, biting your fingernails… It’s some combination of inertia, denial , lack of willpower, lack of energy. That, and I don’t want to hurt my loved ones. ---
**Author:** ![Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hero_From_Sector_7G)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/128 "2010-09-21T00:48:36Z")
I struggle with this subject too, only in a slightly different way. I sincerely believe the next 100 years of human life is going to have some serious problems to face in terms of resources. I won’t derail this thread to substantiate that claim, so don’t ask. In the event of a global resource crises, will a child of mine live a comfortable life? I am pessimistic, and therefor uncomfortable ethically bringing someone into this world that I don’t expect good things for. However, my wife told me to shut up and buck up. Maybe the OP needs a wife. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/129 "2010-09-21T01:27:13Z")
> [@EVERYNAMEISTAKEN](#): > > I am one of the luckiest people in the world. My life is better than most people’s. But I have experienced: > > - Terrible insomnia, so much so that I’ve spent days of my life like a zombie from tiredness > - Severe acne so bad that it ruled over years of my life > - Severe allergies > - Tinnitus > - Headaches, nausea, diarrhea > - Housework (cleaning, cooking, laundry) > - An abusive mother and emotionally abusive father > - Being embarrassed, sad, depressed, angry, scared, bored, lonely, stressed > - Regrets over past decisions that took over my entire life and were all I thought about for years > > And that’s just the beginning. Every day brings new suffering in some form. > > Today, for example, I experienced: > > - Long periods of boredom > - Hunger (not bad enough that I was bothered to go to the store, but still not fun) > - Moderate regret over recent financial decisions and other things > - Exhaustion and dizziness as a result of overworking myself (I actually felt like I wanted to vomit) > - I lost something important to me and had to spend 30 minutes looking for it > - Pretty bad bug bites > - Frustration with other people on a project we were working on > - Worry over certain defects in my appearance > - Constipation > - Loneliness > - Frustration over my tinnitus > - Laundry, which was not fun > > This is just what comes off at the top of my head. This is one day in one of the best lives in the world. I’m not trying to appear ungrateful; believe me, I do recognize how lucky I am. But a good life compared to other lives is still not a good life. Everyone will experience suffering, even if it’s minor. > > Now, granted, it wasn’t all bad. I watched an entertaining movie, I had a nice meal, I finally found the thing I was looking for, I listened to some of my favorite music, I played some computer games and had fun doing so, I did a project that despite frustrations with the other team members I was overall happy with the result of, and I reconnected with an old friend. But had I never been created, I would not miss these things, because people who are never created simply do not exist; they do not have the ability to miss anything. > > Some people may say that I brought these things on myself, but I know I certainly didn’t try to. It is human nature to avoid suffering. Even if someone brings suffering on themselves as a result of their own naivete or because they simply didn’t know any better, it all could have been avoided if their parents had decided not to reproduce. > > There is good in the world and in life, but this does not erase the bad. Nor does the bad erase the good. It’s literally all in the way you look at it. It’s everything. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/130 "2010-09-21T03:14:11Z")
> [@Isabel8](#): > > The point being made is that a life that contains _any amount_ of pain or unpleasant emotion could be seen as less preferable than nonexistence. You could also tell me that two plus two equals seven; I’m not obliged to lend silliness any sympathy. Actions speak louder than words, and you’re still here (I am happy to see), a fact that can be talked around (oh, gosh, it’s instinct/caring about my loved ones/any number of other ways of trying to not admit you like a lot of things about life) and handwaved away but which remains the elephant in the antinatalist room that just refuses to go away. > [@](#): > > When you have a child, you’re forcing an unknown amount of pain & negative emotions onto a person I’m also allowing an unknown number of POSITIVE emotions on the person, and the great bulk of the evidence suggests it’s tilted towards the positive. I’m just playing the odds correctly. ---
**Author:** ![BayouHazard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@BayouHazard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BayouHazard)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/131 "2010-09-21T03:44:48Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > We aren’t dealing with people here who are suffering from clinical depression, a disease that cannot be talked out of. And your reason for jumping to that conclusion is? Kobal2 already mentioned anhedonia… (Which sounds not like an emotional state, but more like a really boring country…come vacation in _lovely_ Anhedonia!..) At least for my case, I take 2 antidepressants and a mood stabilizer…which right now are most decidedly not being enough to effect nondepression…although I am talking, working, and not planning on jumping off the bridge on the way home from work. Sometimes meeting my obligations is as good as it gets. My choice to not have a child was less philosophical and more prosaic: depression has a 60% mother-to-child transmission rate. Add that I have asthma, allergies, and a familial propensity to adult-onset diabetes. So I have not the possibility, but a high probability that I would bring a child into the world to suffer the same sort of life I have suffered-one of lifelong major depression coupled with really bad health. Oh, and poverty, because when you’re sick all the time in America, and depressed a lot, you tend to be poor. And no, I would not do that to some innocent child. I decided it was wrong. On another page I go to, someone else calls themselves “a dopeless hope addict.” Some years are good years. Not lately though. ---
**Author:** ![Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hero_From_Sector_7G)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/132 "2010-09-21T04:05:05Z")
[edit] I misread that. Nevermind. ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/133 "2010-09-21T08:24:27Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > … In the billion to one chance that some of our descendants DO leave this solar system, their civilization, and perhaps even biology, will be unrecognizable to us. They won’t be human in the sense we currently understand it. Well, since that can only be a good thing, I support your position. > [@](#): > > With due respect, I believe you’ve deluded yourself. Most people are objectively none of those things. Society is NOT beset by crime in any sense that that statement would be meaningful; indeed, if you live in any industrialized nation, you are likely experiencing an era of unusually low crime. We do not have any more environmental or resource problems than we have been before, and are equipped with more knowledge and tools than ever to deal with them. Frankly, things in general have never been better. You are remarkably lucky to have been born when and where you were and it is nothing but ignorance to believe otherwise. You obviously don’t encounter the same people I do on a daily basis. You also didn’t read my statement properly, it’s not large scale crime that is the main problem, it’s all the low level anti social behaviour that adds up and drags everything else down. it doesn’t kill you, but it makes places unpleasant to live in. I think you are dedluding yourself if you think we do not have a resource problem, I note you live in Canada, which has a lot of space and not so many people, here in the UK we have exactly the opposite condition. So the current possible [mass extinction](http://www.well.com/~davidu/extinction.html)is not an environmental issue? [Global warming](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming) doesn’t exist? [Population growth](http://www.optimumpopulation.org/) is not out of control? We may have the scientific knowledge to address many of these issues but we lack the political will to actually do anything about them as they would potential lose votes. Sooner or later a government will have to make some unpleasant decisions or we will die out. According to some sources we have less than a century left.[Cite 1](http://dc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/114245/index.php), [Cite 2](http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2003/jun/14/featuresreviews.guardianreview10). We may have the ability to save ourselves, but the questions are will we? and should we? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/134 "2010-09-21T10:23:16Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Toothaches are bad - but temporary. So’s cake and kitten huffing :p. > [@](#): > > We have evolved to forget the true extent of pain - or else no woman would have more than one kid. > We measure our happiness or unhappiness against impossible to obtain ideals, and reminders of how much better we have it than lots of people might help to reset expectations to something reasonable. So, what you’re saying is “people are unhappy because life just isn’t THAT great” ? When did you switch to my side ? 🙂 > [@](#): > > If you don’t want to have kids because you are convinced life is miserable, be my guest. No one should tell me that I shouldn’t have kids who can (and did) inherit our positive outlook on life, and who don’t bitch and moan about things. I don’t know about the others, but I’m not telling you to do squat. I’m not in any way saying my position or outlook on life is superior, or even universal. On the other hand, if you’re telling me it’s stupid, ridiculous or somehow not valid, well, that’s where the line in the sand is. > [@](#): > > The point about children starving wherever is not that you eating your dinner is going to help them - Alan Sherman said that kids kept on starving in Europe and he got fat. It is that those kids would kill to have the problem of too much food on their plates. Yes. So what, and what does it have to do with my Brussel sprouts ? Or, to go back to **Curtis** ’ point, what does people getting blown up in Afghanistan have to do with my lack of happy ? If anything, my empathizing with their suffering adds to mine, rather than the opposite… > [@RickJay](#): > > Who’re you objecting to, though? > Heartbreak sucks. Frustration over _having to do laundry_, though? Come on. Just general purpose objecting for the edification of lurkers, I suppose :p. It’s not like “oh shut up, there’s people dying out there” is a rare comment. And the thing about laundry isn’t “oh my God, laundry day, woe is me /slashwrists”. Least, not as far as I’m concerned. But laundry \*is \*a chore. It’s not pleasant, it’s not enlightening, it’s not interesting, yet it takes a big chunk of one’s time under the Sun. It’s just another of those things you have to do every which when, and have to accept to do because life entails laundry and there ain’t no such thing as a free laundromat. Laundry is as certain as death and taxes. You may think it’s trivial which I would agree to an extent, but it all adds up, little nuisance upon petty concern. > [@](#): > > We aren’t dealing with people here who are suffering from clinical depression, a disease that cannot be talked out of. We’re talking about people advancing a ridiculous argument on an internet message board. Which they could be doing out of depression. But that’s not my point - my point was that “there are worse lives out there” is not an interesting argument, and it’s a dick comment to boot. > [@appleciders](#): > > know that I’m unhappiest when I’m not busy because I get that sense of purposelessness, so I try to stay busy most of the time. Well, yes, so do I, but that’s what this is all about, isn’t it ? We keep ourselves busy (working, breeding, playing, drinking, doodling, etc…) to not think about our lives so much. Because when we do stop to think about life, the Universe and everything, we always seem to come up wanting. And I wonder which is healthy or more “sane” : soldiering on blindly like that ; sitting in a corner with our heads in our hands ; or a precarious and somewhat neurotic equilibrium between the two. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/135 "2010-09-21T13:06:27Z")
> [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](#): > > You obviously don’t encounter the same people I do on a daily basis. Have you considered moving? Perhaps what’s needed here is not anti-natalism, but for some people to take control of their lives and make them better. Be a little proactive. If you seriously perceive all other people as being stupid and mean then perhaps some self-examination, rather that bitching about others, is in order. I mean this not as a personal attack - for all I know you live in Oshawa, in which case you have my sympathies - but as an observation that quite a lot of the “life sucks” chants have an undercurrent of “life sucks and why bother?” Well, you should bother because, as a considerable amount of evidence would suggest, life can be made vastly less sucky with the intelligent application of effort. The opportunities for fun, joy and leisure offered to us are without precedent in human history. I’m probably afforded for time and opportunity to spend fantastic time with my kid than most fathers ever had, and believe me, it’s frickin fantastic. Back when I was in the Army a sergeant once told me, “Son, any idiot can be uncomfortable and complain about it. It takes a smart person to make himself feel better.” Words to the wise. > [@](#): > > u are dedluding yourself if you think we do not have a resource problem, I note you live in Canada, which has a lot of space and not so many people, here in the UK we have exactly the opposite condition. So move. If you don’t like overcrowding (and it’s not like the UK doesn’t have lots and lots of small towns, countryside, and stuff left) you have nobody but yourself to blame. You live in a free country. Pack your shit and go. We have lots of room and you’ll be welcomed here. We need more people. > [@](#): > > So the current possible [mass extinction](http://www.well.com/~davidu/extinction.html)is not an environmental issue? Well, first of all, that site seems… uhhh, not exactly super duper balanced. But let’s assume humans are indeed wiping out many species. I never said we don’t have environmental problems. We do… we always will. We’ve been dealing with man-made environmental problems since before the concept of “environmental problem” even existed. We have the ability to solve these problems and have solved them in the past. I see no reason for more pessimism now than was merited in the past. Also recently in the news is the fact that the ozone layer, once the world’s greatest environmental fear, is mostly repaired and is well on its way to being in its previous, pre-CFC state. We fixed that problem, with fairly minimal disruption. We can fix others. There are already technological fixes being proposed for preventing global warming. Global population growth is widely accepted to be destined to level out. We can fix this stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/136 "2010-09-21T13:50:29Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > > [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](#): > > > > You obviously don’t encounter the same people I do on a daily basis. > > Have you considered moving? Perhaps what’s needed here is not anti-natalism, but for some people to take control of their lives and make them better. Be a little proactive. If you seriously perceive all other people as being stupid and mean then perhaps some self-examination, rather that bitching about others, is in order. I have considered moving, in fact we hope to move within the next few months work allowing, I just have to finish the work I’m doing at University and then, as long as we can find work, we will move. > [@](#): > > I mean this not as a personal attack - for all I know you live in Oshawa, in which case you have my sympathies - but as an observation that quite a lot of the “life sucks” chants have an undercurrent of “life sucks and why bother?” Well, you should bother because, as a considerable amount of evidence would suggest, life can be made vastly less sucky with the intelligent application of effort. The opportunities for fun, joy and leisure offered to us are without precedent in human history. I’m probably afforded for time and opportunity to spend fantastic time with my kid than most fathers ever had, and believe me, it’s frickin fantastic. I’m not familiar with Oshawa, but I’ll trust your judgement as to whether it’s a nice place or not. I agree that, to a certain extent, life is what we make it. Please don’t misunderstand me, in general I do not have a bad life, I enjoy what I do and have a good family life. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > So the current possible [mass extinction](http://www.well.com/~davidu/extinction.html)is not an environmental issue? > > Well, first of all, that site seems… uhhh, not exactly super duper balanced. But let’s assume humans are indeed wiping out many species. > > I never said we don’t have environmental problems. We do… we always will. We’ve been dealing with man-made environmental problems since before the concept of “environmental problem” even existed. We have the ability to solve these problems and have solved them in the past. I see no reason for more pessimism now than was merited in the past. Fair point about the site, I was in a hurry and it was one of the first I came across. > [@](#): > > Also recently in the news is the fact that the ozone layer, once the world’s greatest environmental fear, is mostly repaired and is well on its way to being in its previous, pre-CFC state. We fixed that problem, with fairly minimal disruption. We can fix others. There are already technological fixes being proposed for preventing global warming. Global population growth is widely accepted to be destined to level out. We can fix this stuff. True, perhaps there is cause for optimism. I have to admit that I generally look on the pessimistic side of things, it’s nice to occasionally have that view challenged and to try to think that people are not all bad. ---
**Author:** ![Isabel8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/48db29/32.png) [@Isabel8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isabel8)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/137 "2010-09-21T15:48:30Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You could also tell me that two plus two equals seven; I’m not obliged to lend silliness any sympathy. 2+2=7 is a factual matter of arithmetic; it is objectively false. The issue of whether life’s joy is worth its pain is a subjective issue of personal preference. It’s no sillier to say that, for me, pain trumps joy than it is to say that, for you, the reverse is true. It’s no sillier to prefer broccoli to cake than it is to prefer cake to broccoli, regardless of how uncommon that preference may be. > [@](#): > > Actions speak louder than words, and you’re still here (I am happy to see), a fact that can be talked around (oh, gosh, it’s instinct/caring about my loved ones/any number of other ways of trying to not admit you like a lot of things about life) and handwaved away but which remains the elephant in the antinatalist room that just refuses to go away. I’ve in no way denied that I like (and love!) plenty of things about life. What I’m saying is that I don’t feel that having these likable things is worth having to deal with the painful parts of life. I’d rather forgo both than to experience both. Regarding the “elephant in the antinatalist room”: You seem to be asserting that it’s impossible for anyone who claims to prefer death to be sincere, since the person making the claim is obviously alive and has not accomplished their stated preference. All I can say is that I strongly disagree - it seems obvious to me that people can and do desire things without attaining them (or even trying to attain them), for numerous and varied reasons. > [@](#): > > I’m also allowing an unknown number of POSITIVE emotions on the person, and the great bulk of the evidence suggests it’s tilted towards the positive. I’m just playing the odds correctly. I can’t deny that the vast majority of people appear to feel that experiencing the joy of life is worth enduring the pain. I’d be more comfortable with using that as a justification for the ethicalness of having children if it wasn’t for the fact society prevents people who feel differently from ending their lives. By having a child, you’re betting that the kid will find enough joy to make up for the pain, while at the same time knowing that if they don’t, they will be declared mentally ill and locked up for attempting to act in accordance with their preference. If people were allowed to simply check out of life via painless means whenever they chose, I’d be more comfortable with the idea of bringing new life into the world. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/138 "2010-09-21T19:25:57Z")
> [@Isabel8](#): > > By having a child, you’re betting that the kid will find enough joy to make up for the pain, while at the same time knowing that if they don’t, they will be declared mentally ill… Um, no, I don’t know that. Indeed, precious few people here are ever “locked up” for being mentally ill for any reason at all. And frankly, if someone WANTS to die, they won’t be around long enough to be locked up. A person who sincerely and honestly wants out can find any number of ways guaranteed not to fail. I wonder how hard it would be for me to find people who attempted suicide, did not succeed, and would not sincerely admit they didn’t want to die but weren’t in their right minds or were simply desperate for help. I bet it wouldn’t be hard to find lots of them. ---
**Author:** ![EVERYNAMEISTAKEN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac8455/32.png) [@EVERYNAMEISTAKEN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EVERYNAMEISTAKEN)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/139 "2010-09-28T21:47:42Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Who cares? Its trivial and whining about it as suffering belies actual suffering by people with AIDS or getting carbombed in Afghanistan. Did you miss the part where I said I was one of the luckiest people in the world? The point is that even the best of lives contain suffering. Just because it’s trivial compared to the suffering in other lives, and of course there are lives that contain much much more suffering, doesn’t make it any more pleasant. I think the reason a lot of people reject this view is because it makes them feel worse about their own lives. ---
**Author:** ![EVERYNAMEISTAKEN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac8455/32.png) [@EVERYNAMEISTAKEN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EVERYNAMEISTAKEN)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817/140 "2010-09-28T22:00:24Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Heartbreak sucks. Frustration over _having to do laundry_, though? Come on. Few people like doing laundry. If they did, they wouldn’t hire someone to do their laundry for them when they had the financial means. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-having-kids-ethical/553817.md?page=8)