# Is healthcare a right? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 17, 2011, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188 "2011-05-17T08:15:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/181 "2011-05-22T00:06:32Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Another issue is that most health care costs are incurred in the first year, and last six months, of life. Relatively few newborns are employed, and most of the folks who die in the US are over 65 and retired. Therefore, it is possible to spend a lot on health care and not address the problems of absenteeism at all. Which is exactly what we’re doing now, & why actually covering health care for working age people would be a far greater boon to productivity than our current Medicare system for much less money. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2011, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/182 "2011-05-22T02:53:25Z")
Heathcare is the responsibility of a caring nation. Th should be glad to help those in need. We don’t have a caring nation anymore. We bitch about every possibility that might cost the holy taxpayer a dime. We let the poerful loot every political program but Social Security. They want to get their hands on that too. ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/183 "2011-05-22T03:02:26Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Heathcare is the responsibility of a caring nation. Th should be glad to help those in need. > We don’t have a caring nation anymore. We bitch about every possibility that might cost the holy taxpayer a dime. We let the poerful loot every political program but Social Security. They want to get their hands on that too. Why the assumption that it’s because we’re greedy pigs that don’t care about people? Most of the people that I know care a lot - but they are wary of turning it over to the government. IMO, the government hasn’t exactly distinguished itself as an honest and efficient way to take care of business. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/184 "2011-05-22T03:40:13Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > Why the assumption that it’s because we’re greedy pigs that don’t care about people? Most of the people that I know care a lot - but they are wary of turning it over to the government. IMO, the government hasn’t exactly distinguished itself as an honest and efficient way to take care of business. And so, the bubble grows. As any researcher on economic bubbles could tell you, people and organizations do continue in an irrational economical path until disaster comes knocking at the door. IMHO what we are seeing in the current health care plan is a system that is not optimal, but it is the best that could be done so far thanks to the politicians in the pockets of industry. People may care a lot, but their actions show otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2011, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/185 "2011-05-22T03:45:34Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And so, the bubble grows. As any researcher on economic bubbles could tell you, people and organizations do continue in an irrational economical path until disaster comes knocking at the door. IMHO what we are seeing in the current health care plan is a system that is not optimal, but it is the best that could be done so far thanks to the politicians in the pockets of industry. > > People may care a lot, but their actions show otherwise. Perhaps, but why the rush straight into UHC? There are lots of ideas out there, and with a subject as complicated as this, there are many difference points to start an attack. UHC just sounds like people throwing their hands up and whining “It’s too haaarrrrd” and giving it up to the government. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2011, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/186 "2011-05-22T04:34:49Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > Perhaps, but why the rush straight into UHC? There is a rush? Where do you see that? Even the recent plan is just like a tentative step forward. > [@Sateryn76](#): > > There are lots of ideas out there, and with a subject as complicated as this, there are many difference points to start an attack. > > UHC just sounds like people throwing their hands up and whining “It’s too haaarrrrd” and giving it up to the government. In Switzerland, one of the last developed nations on earth that until recently had no UHC, people choose now from a broad array of health plans, sold by private insurance companies. The government subsidizes those who can’t afford it. While expensive when compared to other systems in other developed nations that have single payer systems, the Swiss still pay a lot less than Americans are paying now, and on top of that, they cover all their citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2011, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/187 "2011-05-22T13:04:05Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The giveaway happened during the Bush administration under a Republican Congress. The Dems controlled Congress and the White House, and Obamacare did not “fix” Medicare. Historical revisionism does not become you. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2011, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/188 "2011-05-22T13:34:44Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > Perhaps, but why the rush straight into UHC? It isn’t a rush, except maybe to catch up. We are way behind where we could be and need to be, while most of the rest of the civilized world is not. > [@](#): > > There are lots of ideas out there, and with a subject as complicated as this, there are many difference points to start an attack. There are a number of systems already proven and in place, true. But they all work, and it doesn’t really matter much which one we pick as long as we pick one. Don’t fall into the paralysis by analysis trap; this isn’t an experiment, it’s only about implementation. > [@](#): > > UHC just sounds like people throwing their hands up and whining “It’s too haaarrrrd” and giving it up to the government. It’s not “too hard” :rolleyes:, it’s too \*expensive \* the way the private sector has mismanaged it, given that their economic incentive is to charge all they can get away with and deny service all they can. And, it leaves too many people uncovered at all. It isn’t “whining”, it’s _accepting responsibility_. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2011, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/189 "2011-05-22T13:41:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The Dems controlled Congress and the White House Pretty sure **Voyager** ’s referring to the prescriptions giveaway to Big Pharma. > [@](#): > > Obamacare did not “fix” Medicare. Not much, no, but it did end the non-value-added “Medicare Advantage” giveaway to Big Pharma. > [@](#): > > Historical revisionism does not become you. Denial doesn’t help anyone, either. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/190 "2011-05-22T18:56:11Z")
DMV is a lousy and unfair comparison. Try Social Security which is run on 1.5 percent of income. It is extremely well run and efficient. Health care with the new rules will force health insurance companies to pay out 85 percent of their income in services. That incensed them. They are jacking up rates by as much as 50 percent . They are horrified at the idea of possible smaller paychecks for execs. They pay multi-million dollar salaries and are not satisfied with that. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/191 "2011-05-22T22:09:25Z")
DMV is a state agency . So there are huge differences in efficiency from state to state. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2011, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/192 "2011-05-22T23:15:15Z")
I think the problem is that there are no other countries in the world that have UHC so we can’t compare their system to ours. No, wait: EVERY OTHER INDUSTRIALIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD has UHC with lower costs and better outcomes. The most expensive of those is about 60% of what we spend to not cover everybody. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/193 "2011-05-22T23:40:58Z")
Social Security is not going broke. it is financed by a tax on paychecks. that means it has a steady flow of income. It has a pile of Tbills stashed. It can not hit the treasury if it has a short fall. it was set up deliberately that way. If it goes short it cuts back on payouts. If nothing is done it will pay 80 percent far into the future, If they tweak it, it will be healthy again. It will pay 100 percent for about the next 30 years. If unemployment was at a lower level, it would be perfectly healthy again. Compare that to the banking industry. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/194 "2011-05-23T00:49:23Z")
Can you image if Newton were alive today and discovered gravity? The conservatives in this country would say “maybe it’s that way in Europe, but America is different”. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/195 "2011-05-23T01:07:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > They couldn’t “fix” Medicare with a Democrat in the White House, and control of both houses of Congress. But it’s not their fault, just like it won’t be their fault when Congress fails to make the Medicare cuts to pay for Obamacare. > > _:shrugs:_ > > Regards, > Shodan You are aware the senate was unable to act due to the Repub endless use of filibusters. They could not reach the 60 vote level the Repubs forced. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/196 "2011-05-23T04:15:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The Dems controlled Congress and the White House, and Obamacare did not “fix” Medicare. > > Historical revisionism does not become you. > > Regards, > Shodan You seem to forget the Bush pushed change to Medicare during which the possibility of negotiating drug prices was discussed and rejected. Or are you now calling Bush a Democrat? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/197 "2011-05-23T05:08:07Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > Why the assumption that it’s because we’re greedy pigs that don’t care about people? Most of the people that I know care a lot - but they are wary of turning it over to the government. IMO, the government hasn’t exactly distinguished itself as an honest and efficient way to take care of business. The health care companies who are concerned about profits are running the system now. They have a system of denying all the coverage they possibly can. they are not in business to provide health care. they are in business to make money. those purposes fight each other. Providing care costs money. So they are in the health care denial business. That is one lousy system. were you in america when the banks destroyed the world economy. Those are the people you trust? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/198 "2011-05-23T13:00:28Z")
> [@Amasia](#): > > Why is it a horrific view that if people have no way to pay for transplants that they not receive them? What’s horrific has to do with your next sentence > [@](#): > > I think it’s a realistic view- until there is a system by which everyone has an ability to pay (such as universal health care). That system you mention is used by every other industrialized nation on the planet, and costs less than our system. Yet we defend a system where we tell people you’re not rich enough to live, or that they need to go bankrupt over their medical bills, because it’s they way our system is set up. ---
**Author:** ![Amasia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Amasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amasia)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/199 "2011-05-23T15:25:23Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > What’s horrific has to do with your next sentenceThat system you mention is used by every other industrialized nation on the planet, and costs less than our system. Yet we defend a system where we tell people you’re not rich enough to live, or that they need to go bankrupt over their medical bills, because it’s they way our system is set up. Right- the US has already rejected universal health care for the time being. So within our current system, ability to pay is a necessary consideration. Sorry that current reality is horrific and what people deal with and struggle with every day is horrific. It’s a component of the overall point of this discussion- what sort of health care do people have a right to, and how will it be paid for? Transplants are a tiny component of our medical system. I’m not defending the system, by the way. I just see no other option with our current system. Without a system under which (1) transplants are a right or (2) there is a form of UHC, I do not see how you could not factor in ability to pay. We have neither. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/200 "2011-05-23T16:59:49Z")
I have a Canadian friend that got a heart transplant . It was a very difficult and expensive operation. It cost him nothing. His wife did not go broke trying to help him recover. They did not declare bankruptcy. Countries with universal health care are shocked that America allows that to happen. But it is all about money here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188.md?page=11)