# Is healthcare a right? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 17, 2011, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188 "2011-05-17T08:15:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/61 "2011-05-18T03:51:32Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You made the comparison to education. That, to me, is the best analogy. In my personal opinion, a healthy populace is a net good for the country, just like an educated populace is. So even if we pay for health care, we still see an overall non-financial benefit. And eyt we also get these kinds of (exceedingly vague) benefit from lots of other things. And most of them aren’t provided by government, for good reason. Particularly in the case of police and fire, we face a lot of spillover costs if things go badly. And in some cases, such as vaccination, I would not object terribly to public provision (though I would also warn that numerous groups, from anti-vaccers to drug companies to doctors would try to control the process, and their influence WILL affect things substantially) and certainly not to a requirement that those using some public facilities be vaccinated. With healthcare, we face the trouble that good healthcare is heavily dependant on factors the healthcare providers do not control, period. Further (and this is absolutely critical) people know what care they need far better than bureaucrats in Washington. They can and wil screw anything you do, along with any other > [@](#): > > And, again like education, it shouldn’t be mandatory to participate. You would pay taxes (just like now) but you would have the option of seeking private health care if you chose. I hate to point this out lest this thread be bogged down into a side issue.. but public education is a _disaster_, and for many of the same reasons public healthcare is poorly spent. In short, everyone has a voice except the consumer, and the process is measured on the inputs: schools beg for more money no matter what, teachers unions demand more pay, superintendents shout for more controls and audits, and even the damn janitors have a voice. In fact, everyone except the parents manage to control the process. The system works for the people with power. The result is that in states which favor teachers unions and the like, you tend to get expensive education - and it has no impact whatsoever on the student’s performance. None. Effectively correlation. You have schools with no money and schools with lots at both end so the performance range. What this does tell us is that culture matters. We can in fact show that teachers do matter, though teacher’s unions do tend to kneecap that. This is not a matter of opinion: it’s provable mathematically, whether we like it or not. A great many liberals believe sincerely that if they can just get control fo the proces, they can make things smooth. Yet is hasn’t worked. It never worked in the last century. Things always bog down because they’re trying to run a machine with the wrong fuel while blindfolded. This is one huge reasons I support vouchers: same great taste, half the calories. And much like healthcare, it’s a fierld where outcomes aren’t very well correlated to inputs. And that is a key problem in both healthcare and education. We measure based on inputs, and not outputs. As annoying as the No Child Left Behind Act was, it actually did aim where improvement was needed: by providing an objective answer. It can’t solve the problem on its own, but it can provide a start. > [@](#): > > Just like you would have the option of sending your kids to a private school if you choose.I don’t attribute conservative opposition to public health care to evil. I think it’s just part of the general conservative pro-corporate package. We don’t care about corporations. We care about good business. We have hardly ignored the fact that so many of the most powerful corporations heavily favor our opponents, nor that they always make out like bandits the more regulation you pass. It’s nice to be told by a liberal that he doesn’t think I’m evil. I get kinda down when I come onto the board and see a dozen people declare so authoritatively how I obviously hate (in no particularly order) blacks, women, poor, teachers, gays, hispanics, professors, etc. > [@](#): > > As you note, we have a very expensive private health system which means some people are making a lot of money out of the status quo. These people have a vested interest in blocking reform of the system. What you fail to se is that they’ll win no matter what. They are already insiders; more regulation, more control? it just means they have a guarranteed income stream. Corporations love complex government regulations because it locks down the market and prevents entry. of course, this is often foolish because it can and does hurt them in other ways - look at Detroit. But noone ever said they were all geniuses. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > You do realize that Every Single Industrialized Country except for the USofA has some form of universal health care. Every Single One does it cheaper, covers more people, and has as good (if not better) overall outcomes for the health of their people. Every Single One is cheaper and better (or at worst on par with) our system. Every Single One. I would definitely argue with that for several reasons. \*First, it’s not just costs which are going up. People are deliberately choosing to spend more on healthcare. They’re getting something out of it. Whether or not you think that’s worthwhile is not really relevant. \*Second, are you really arguing we’re not benefiting from new drugs and treatments, whicha re being created for the American market? \*Third, we must always consider our inputs. For a variety of reasons, America has a significant underclass which does not invest in healthcare and in fact opts to use the most expensive services. They could in fact do otherwise, but they don’t. This will not change without ultural change, not passing some law. But here is my big point: if Ye Liberal Ones are so sure you can do this… why haven’t you? Why si is that the closer you come, the worse and worse things get, both with outcomes and financially, when these were supposed to improve health and reduce costs? Why do you keep demanding a national system when you haven’t shown once that you can run an effective system? I’m sure you’d like to claim that we evil Republicans are always sabotaging you… but can you argue with a straight face that’s the case in Massachusetts? Romney was totalyl on-board, yet it’s a dismal failure. Same with the Democrats’ Tenncare here in tennessee. We finally had to scrap big chunks of it to keep from going broke. if the plans are so great, why can’t you fix Medicare and Medicaid? These are hardly trivial objections, and I think we’re entitled to a little suspicion. The big progressive programs have a bad habit of collapsing in on themselves. > [@](#): > > Is there some sort of intellectual malfunction that causes people to ignore this and bleat the same tired claim that the free market is more efficient and government programs are financial disasters? Dunno. Is there something about your brain which cannot recognize or try to correct the failure of all similar progams here, or recognizing the deep problems of some of those much-vaunted healthcare plans, before trying out some new scheme? > [@](#): > > And your solution to the free rider problem is what, exactly? Ask other countries to pretty please pay more money for stuff you’re getting cheaply? I have a better idea… we pay what they pay. Free ridership - OVER. My solution? Simple. We let people decide if the drug is worthwhile, or not. The FDA should do it’s own testing, and much faster about it. They should publish their own literature and let doctors and patients decide whether the risks are worth it using simple probability. If people fail to understand, or choose poorly, it’s their problem and they can live with the consequences. But my solution is somewhat irrelevant and I don’t want to discuss it here. I would be happy to talk about it somewhere else. > [@](#): > > Big Pharma is upset? They may slow down R&D? Okay, let’s ALL get together countries and Pharmas and discuss a reasonable, worldwide, price structure that spreads the cost to everyone. So why not try to do this first? Frankly, this is my big, huge, absolutely-will-not-compromise issue. If all you can say is “We’ll have an international conference!”, _then you have nothing to say_. We have no bargaining power, and negotiations are, and always have been, about bargaining power. They’re not going to start taxing themselves more to take the burdern off Americans. I suppose we could then try to have the government pour money into the pharmas. Of course, then it would be trying to pick winners and losers, and the costs would increase dramatically, and be subject to much more politicking and interference than today, and then there’s the yearly budget wrangling… But no, your wrong about something. “Big Pharma” (and there ain’t enough rolleyes in the world for how childish your economics are if you even use that kind of nonsense term) isn’t upset. Ultimately, they’ll make money. What you’ll do is shift the profits from making new worthwhile drugs to delivering old ones cheaply. Great… if you need an old drug or treatment. Sucks if your life is the one saved or improved by a new drug or treatment. In short, I consider you ignorant for one simple reason: you see only the obvious. It’s no great stroke of genius to say, “Damn! Healthcare costs are too high. We must do _something_!” But you ignore all tradeoffs and the actual complexities of implementation. You ignore the fact that you’ve (you plural) failed time and time again to deliver workable systems. When it comes down to it, your argument is not about the benefits of healthcare, but about whether we shoudl trust you or not. And there’s no good reason to do so. I’m sure you mean well. But you seem to think you can solve intractable problems you’ve failed before time and time again simply by really, really meaning it this time. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/62 "2011-05-18T04:05:03Z")
Actually, I should have mentioned: I noticed no one actually did raise any substansive arguments against my post. I know people are busy, and if you’re not interesting, it’s alright if we don’t want to continue. I’m pretty erratic in posting myself these days. I don’t blame people for not wanting to get into a difficult issue. At the same time, I’d rather like if there were a little less name-calling a little more recognition that this is hardly some eay-answer question. Again, you can look over on Megan McArdle’s blog to read about some of the critical questions. She’s a libertarian, but you’d find her exceptionally clear and often favoring liberals, except for all the things they do\*. Well, actually, she tends to vote Democrat and then regret it, but c’est al vie. \*😃 ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/63 "2011-05-18T04:10:17Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Last time I checked, water was more essential to living than health care, and it isn’t free, Water ain’t free? Well hell, I’ve been collecting it in big tanks as it fell from the sky for years. Years! To whom should I make out a cheque? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/64 "2011-05-18T04:22:07Z")
The problem with health care is those who make money off it, determine how it operates. They have no incentive to cut costs . Doctors get paid for each procedure they do, not the health results they achieve. Heath insurance companies are after profits, regardless if it results in people dying. They will do everything they can to keep as many people from accessing care that they have paid for. The old profit motive has screwed up what should be a public good. We have a bad health care system that costs much more than the other countries who provide far better care. Most health insurance costs are on the backs of companies. That makes it difficult to compete with countries who do not wrap health costs into each product. What the hell is there to like about such a stupid system? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/65 "2011-05-18T04:28:11Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > … some people are making a lot of money out of the status quo. These people have a vested interest in blocking reform of the system. Don’t confuse the corporations financing right-wing politics with the voters they dupe. The two groups have completely different ideals. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/66 "2011-05-18T05:25:31Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I noticed no one actually did raise any substansive arguments against my post… > I’d rather like if there were a little less name-calling a little more recognition that this is hardly some eay-answer question. I’ll agree about “the less name-calling.” I also agree that there are no easy answers; indeed upthread I was almost accused of a “death panel” approach. :smack: > [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > … bureaucrats in Washington … can and wil screw anything you do … > … teacher’s unions do tend to kneecap … > Dunno. Is there something about your brain which cannot recognize or try to correct … > .. there ain’t enough rolleyes in the world for how childish your economics are if you even use that kind of nonsense term … > In short, I consider you ignorant for one simple reason: you see only the obvious. > [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > The big, beloved (and liberal-created) programs are financial disasters. Hell, … once you kneecap the pharmas, > Whoop-de-friggin-do. > … why do people who normally hate the thought of morality in politics seem to suddenly demand it? > … And do you recognize that if you have a right to something, it is a positive right to force other mpeople to labor for you? > > … You have the right to die if you live. It’s hard for me to find the specific “substansive” points you want to debate. At least you’re not name-calling though. Oh, here’s one: > [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > My solution? Simple. We let people decide if the drug is worthwhile, or not. The FDA should do it’s own testing, and much faster about it. They should publish their own literature and let doctors and patients decide whether the risks are worth it using simple probability. You want the knee-capping screw-everything bureaucratic hands off of drug development, but do want them to do the testing? And, BTW, you seem to think progressive thinkers want the government to develop new pharmaceuticals. Cite? Yes, Medicare has become very expensive. But to blame only the liburrals is to ignore fact: [GWB lowballed his Welfare for Big Pharma by more than half a trillion dollars](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A9328-2005Feb8.html) ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/67 "2011-05-18T05:28:12Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Health care isn’t a right. But it should be. > > Saying a public health care system enslaves doctors is just stupid. Does our public education system enslave teachers? Does our law enforcement system enslave police officers? Best answer? Best answer. > [@sh1bu1](#): > > In colonal America you were required to have a fire bucket handy and to come to the assistance when there was a fire. Hm. Maybe we should mandate that everyone get nurse’s training? > [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Thing is, health care in the US has stopped being a left/right conservative/liberal Democrat/Republican thing and has become a stupid/smart thing. By almost every metric, health care in the US is less cost-effective, more expensive, covering fewer people, causing more financial and medical hardship and just in general more fucked up than health care in the other industrialized nations in the world. We’ve slipped WAAAAY down in the quality of health care in the US, and anyone who doesn’t see it is: > > STUPID > > STUPID > > STUPID > > STUPID. > > Really, a health care debate in the US at this point is ridiculous. All that’s deserved for those who can’t see the facts is a good chewing out. Which I just provided! Hosanna indeed. > [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > The big, beloved (and liberal-created) programs are financial disasters. Which is why the Democrats are wrong to try to save them. But the Republicans don’t seem to have the will to replace them with something functional either. And we do need something better than a single-payer system which taxes every business in the country to provide a right to subsidized health care for retirees. Like maybe subsidizing working people first? > [@](#): > > But we are still better off designing drugs for ourselves. I dispute that “we” means much in this sentence, or that any “we” I am a member of is better off in the present situation. > [@](#): > > There is a reason all political rights I consider worthwhile are negative rights - the right not to be bothered or interfered with. You’re one of those people who thinks oxygen is merely the absence of asphyxiants, aren’t you? Do you or do you not have a positive right to breathable air, a healthful physical environment, etc.? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/68 "2011-05-18T05:54:56Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I hate to point this out lest this thread be bogged down into a side issue.. but public education is a _disaster_, and for many of the same reasons public healthcare is poorly spent. No, you claim that public education is a disaster. But saying it doesn’t make it so. We can actually measure how well public education has worked. Because the United States used to not have a public education system. And then we created one. And by every reasonable standard it produced the predicted results. People became more educated by every measurable standard. And every other country that established a public education system achieved the same results. So public education is a honking huge success. And hopefully public health would be just as successful. ---
**Author:** ![Amasia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Amasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amasia)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/69 "2011-05-18T06:03:08Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > We have already established that education in the United States is a right. > > I don’t see why healthcare - you know, keeping yourself healthy and alive -is so far off. A healthier nation is a more productive one. Cite? Who is education a right for? How is our current system of healthcare, which provides right to healthcare for certain, specific groups based on law any different than what we have for education? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/70 "2011-05-18T06:44:29Z")
> [@Amasia](#): > > Cite? Who is education a right for? How is our current system of healthcare, which provides right to healthcare for certain, specific groups based on law any different than what we have for education? Seriously? You feel we have a public health system equivalent to the public education system? The public education system creates a comprehensive school system which is paid for by the government (ie taxes) and which every eligible person (ie everyone from the age of approximately five to eighteen) is entitled to use for free. Can you explain where you find a similar health care system in the United States? One that’s giving everyone free general health care and is paid for by taxes? ---
**Author:** ![Amasia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Amasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amasia)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/71 "2011-05-18T06:56:45Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Seriously? You feel we have a public health system equivalent to the public education system? > > The public education system creates a comprehensive school system which is paid for by the government (ie taxes) and which every eligible person (ie everyone from the age of approximately five to eighteen) is entitled to use for free. > > Can you explain where you find a similar health care system in the United States? One that’s giving everyone free general health care and is paid for by taxes? Sure. It’s called Medicare (A&B in this example) and it’s available for everyone 65+. Or it’s called the Indian Health Service and it’s for every federally recognized tribal member. Or it’s called the Veteran’s Health Care System (under the VA) for military veterans. Or it’s called Medicaid/SCHIP for kids of a wide range of incomes (although obviously for public education there is no means testing). ETA: I realize not all of these examples are free, but as I am sure you are aware, many universal health systems are not free either (France, Germany) so I don’t see that as necessary to providing a universal service. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/72 "2011-05-18T07:21:32Z")
> [@Amasia](#): > > Sorry, but where has the government agreed to provide us parks? Rights are either from the Constitution or through a law. A government might create a park but that is completely different than a right to a park. > > There is no right to life, understood to mean that your life must be extended. In a general sense, you have a right to live your life, within certain parameters. > > What if I discover I have an illness that costs 1 trillion dollars to treat? Do I have a right to that treatment? If you can’t be bothered to actually read my post, maybe you shouldn’t bother replying. The fact that there are government run and owned parks all over is plenty of evidence that the government agrees to provide them. In my very next words I said that this provision was not fundamental, that is, not a right. Clearly you seem to be believe that a policeman or fireman who finds a person bleeding to death should just leave him if the bandages would cost the government some money. I’ll just respond to your trillion dollar nonsense by asking if the government should spend a dollar to save a life? But at least it appears you are in favor of death panels. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/73 "2011-05-18T07:23:48Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Maybe it’s due to my symptoms of mild autism, but I get lost in the layers of snark and have no idea what your point is. > > Mine was a _reductio ad absurdem_ argument against an insurance-oriented health care system. Sorry. Mine too. I seriously did like your example, since it nicely pointed out the difference between auto insurance and health insurance, a difference the anti-healthcare people seem to have a problem with. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/74 "2011-05-18T07:27:09Z")
> [@Amasia](#): > > Sure. It’s called Medicare (A&B in this example) and it’s available for everyone 65+. > > Or it’s called the Indian Health Service and it’s for every federally recognized tribal member. > > Or it’s called the Veteran’s Health Care System (under the VA) for military veterans. > > Or it’s called Medicaid/SCHIP for kids of a wide range of incomes (although obviously for public education there is no means testing). > > ETA: I realize not all of these examples are free, but as I am sure you are aware, many universal health systems are not free either (France, Germany) so I don’t see that as necessary to providing a universal service. What part of “everyone” don’t you get? The veterans system is payment for services rendered, the Indian system might be payment for past injustices (not sure), but Medicare is close. Now if it were only extended to everyone, we’d be cooking. BTW, insurance in Germany is not free - it is however, very reasonable. My daughter now has it. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/75 "2011-05-18T07:32:51Z")
> [@Amasia](#): > > There wouldn’t necessarily be only one employer. There could be only one payer (current British system). I’m sorry, I don’t understand what you mean. What’s the difference between an employers and a payer? The current British system has private healthcare alongside the NHS; there’s more than one potential employer. > [@puddleglum](#): > > Neither education or police protection are rights. Just because the government provides it does not mean that it is a right. In some localities government provides trash services. But that does not mean that there is a right to have your garbage picked up. **Saying that healthcare is a right means that a doctor or nurse is obligated to treat you regardless of your willingness to pay.** Yes. What made you think otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/76 "2011-05-18T07:47:12Z")
> [@Amasia](#): > > Sure. It’s called Medicare (A&B in this example) and it’s available for everyone 65+. > > Or it’s called the Indian Health Service and it’s for every federally recognized tribal member. > > Or it’s called the Veteran’s Health Care System (under the VA) for military veterans. > > Or it’s called Medicaid/SCHIP for kids of a wide range of incomes (although obviously for public education there is no means testing). > > ETA: I realize not all of these examples are free, but as I am sure you are aware, many universal health systems are not free either (France, Germany) so I don’t see that as necessary to providing a universal service. So we have a universal free health care system. Except for the part about it being universal and the part about it being free. Remember when you asked how our health care system was different than our education system? There’s your answer. ---
**Author:** ![Amasia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Amasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amasia)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/77 "2011-05-18T08:03:58Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If you can’t be bothered to actually read my post, maybe you shouldn’t bother replying. The fact that there are government run and owned parks all over is plenty of evidence that the government agrees to provide them. In my very next words I said that this provision was not fundamental, that is, not a right. > Clearly you seem to be believe that a policeman or fireman who finds a person bleeding to death should just leave him if the bandages would cost the government some money. I’ll just respond to your trillion dollar nonsense by asking if the government should spend a dollar to save a life? > But at least it appears you are in favor of death panels. Just because some disagrees with you doesn’t mean that they don’t read your posts. It was not clear from your post that you were saying parks were not a right. However, I now see that I did misread and apologize for doing so. An individual person can act however they like with a person dying on the side of the road as long as they are not causing them harm. Obviously, the moral choice would be to assist that person, but no one is actually obligated to do anything. My point with the trillion dollar question is that you really don’t believe that everyone has a right to health care. You believe that people have a right to health care _with limits._ Obviously, different limits then are currently in place. Fine. Let me be really clear: What do you mean when you’re saying right? Do you mean a moral right, as in you believe it’s a moral duty to provide health care? If it’s a moral duty, is it the job of the government to enforce your belief of moral duty? Or do you mean a legal right? If you mean a legal right, where does it come from? You’re using the phrase “right to life” which doesn’t really clearly mean anything. Please clarify what you mean by that. Also, can you define death panels? Oh, you mean [these](http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6963/11/8)? Why yes, thanks for asking- I am in favour of them. ---
**Author:** ![Amasia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Amasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amasia)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/78 "2011-05-18T08:13:09Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I’m sorry, I don’t understand what you mean. What’s the difference between an employers and a payer? The current British system has private healthcare alongside the NHS; there’s more than one potential employer. I was referring to the vast majority of British health care, which is funded through a common insurance pool (insurance = payer). ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/79 "2011-05-18T08:17:35Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > **Vengeful wrath answer:** The United States of America is a terrorist operation which bombs cities & tortures innocents. The American people support and vote for this. They don’t deserve health care. They don’t deserve to live. > _Well, maybe showing mercy to the electorate of the world’s most powerful state will encourage them to show mercy._ > It won’t. They are depraved. Let them suffer in their mutual loathing, & pray that one day they are destroyed by internal violence. > _Well, that took a dark turn._ This gave me the mental image of Osama bin Ladin’s wraith blown on the trade winds and eventually silently drifting into **foolsguinea** ’s brain through an earhole. Suddenly **foolsguinea** ’s posting style takes on a distinctly darker cast… ---
**Author:** ![Amasia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Amasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amasia)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188/80 "2011-05-18T08:20:55Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > What part of “everyone” don’t you get? The veterans system is payment for services rendered, the Indian system might be payment for past injustices (not sure), but Medicare is close. Now if it were only extended to everyone, we’d be cooking. > > BTW, insurance in Germany is not free - it is however, very reasonable. My daughter now has it. I was pointing out that Germany is not free. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So we have a universal free health care system. Except for the part about it being universal and the part about it being free. > > Remember when you asked how our health care system was different than our education system? There’s your answer. Here’s the thing: our educational system is only available to a very specific subset of the population. Children 5-18 (unless their parents decide otherwise in certain circumstances). I pointed out that subsidized health care/ insurance is currently available to certain subsets of the population. I never was arguing that they are both the same price. And although every other modern health care system is on average much more reasonably priced than the US system, only some are free. How to pay is clearly an important question. But the point I am making is that education is not currently a universal right anymore than health care. The right people have to certain type of education is similar to the right people have to a certain type of medical care (emergency medical care). You can get it, no matter what your circumstances. Education is similar to health care in some ways as have already been described in this thread. But, I think it’s a poor example of where we want the health care debate to go, if your purpose is to argue it’s a universal right. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-healthcare-a-right/582188.md?page=5)