# Is High-Speed Rail a good idea for California? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 16, 2012, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457 "2012-07-16T23:51:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/81 "2012-07-20T11:37:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Unless there are high speed buses I’m not aware of they are not competitors. Even low speed trains have trouble competing with buses which can change routes quite easily. It’s tough to lay down new track. How true-why not just have robot controlled buses-they could travel at 90-100 MPH-and using collision avoidance software, ought to be as safe as trains. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/82 "2012-07-20T14:02:37Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > How true-why not just have robot controlled buses-they could travel at 90-100 MPH-and using collision avoidance software, ought to be as safe as trains. So you want to develop new technology and build a dedicated high-speed bus lane, just to have a system less than half the speed of a modern high-speed rail? Where’s the market for _that_? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/83 "2012-07-20T14:05:33Z")
You know what would be even better is robot controlled trains. You pack everyone who is getting off at a certain stop onto a train, and the train simply decouples those cars when they get to that stop, and the rest of the train continues on. People get off, the rest of them get on, then the mini train continues forward. It has some kinks to be sure but it would be even better than robot controlled busses. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/84 "2012-07-20T22:15:20Z")
To understand one of basic drawbacks of HSR you have to understand some basic physics. [http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/withouthotair/cA/page\_254.shtml](http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/withouthotair/cA/page_254.shtml) If you take a train at 60mph and speed it up to 120mph the drag quadruples. It you increase the speed to 180mph then the drag increases by 8. Until we can run trains in evacuated tubes, going that fast close to the ground is a big energy waster. ---
**Author:** ![gunnergoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e95f7d/32.png) [@gunnergoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gunnergoz)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/85 "2012-07-20T23:43:29Z")
California has a history of wanting pie in the sky and ending up eating humble pie instead. I don’t think the state’s legislature is mature or professional enough to see this project through to its logical conclusion. It may be completed and may even generate some income, but probably not enough to justify the expense. As a concept, I’m all in favor of it…after all, Europe has a wonderful network of high-speed, efficient rail. But this is a one-trip pony, more or less and I question if it can be made to make money. The only hope it has is that it generates enough interest and is practical enough, to permit long-distance commuting of some type. If that worked, it could encourage people to buy homes farther away from work, which might be cheaper and in nicer communities than they could otherwise afford. But the sort of jobs that would support such a career would have to be pretty high-paying professional positions with real career potential and stability. It could happen, given the SF/Silicon Valley history of generating high-paying jobs, but it sure won’t help commuters on the lower end of the scale. No one is going to ride this puppy to show up for his job at a McDonald’s. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/86 "2012-07-21T01:52:47Z")
Maybe California should try building a decent inter-city bus system first. A have a friend that uses Megabus to go from Orlando to Atlanta. She loves it and it is actually cheaper than the gas to drive there. Orlando to Atlanta is downtown to downtown. It is actually further than Los Angles to San Francisco. I actually like the Robobus idea. It is actually a much easier problem to have a bus that only goes from interstate exit to exit than one that can drive on surface streets. It would be more flexible to be able to add additional buses during heavy demand instead of having standby drivers or running mostly empty buses. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/87 "2012-07-21T02:22:34Z")
Would any of you actually take a 100mph automated inter-city bus between SF and LA rather than driving or taking an airline flight? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/88 "2012-07-21T02:24:42Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > You know what would be even better is robot controlled trains. You pack everyone who is getting off at a certain stop onto a train, and the train simply decouples those cars when they get to that stop, and the rest of the train continues on. People get off, the rest of them get on, then the mini train continues forward. It has some kinks to be sure but it would be even better than robot controlled busses. Kind of like a modern version of [slip coaches](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slip_coach). ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/89 "2012-07-21T02:42:39Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Would any of you actually take a 100mph automated inter-city bus between SF and LA rather than driving or taking an airline flight? I would. It would be a lot be a lot cheaper than driving or flying and I can text and surf the web to my hearts content. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/90 "2012-07-21T02:43:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Unless there are high speed buses I’m not aware of they are not competitors. Even low speed trains have trouble competing with buses which can change routes quite easily. It’s tough to lay down new track. Then again, the whole spiel about the flexibility of bus operations is something of a red herring. Sure, you can change the routes very easily, but you’re still always going to have huge numbers of people wanting to travel between L.A. and S.F. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/91 "2012-07-21T12:56:30Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Would any of you actually take a 100mph automated inter-city bus between SF and LA rather than driving or taking an airline flight? As opposed to the already mostly automated aairplanes we have flying around. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/92 "2012-07-21T16:04:30Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > You know what would be even better is robot controlled trains. You pack everyone who is getting off at a certain stop onto a train, and the train simply decouples those cars when they get to that stop, and the rest of the train continues on. People get off, the rest of them get on, then the mini train continues forward. It has some kinks to be sure but it would be even better than robot controlled busses. I’ve already seen various proposals for trains that don’t stop. [http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/11/high-speed-trains-that-make-no-stops.html](http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/11/high-speed-trains-that-make-no-stops.html) ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/93 "2012-07-21T17:34:24Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I’ve already seen various proposals for trains that don’t stop. > > [http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/11/high-speed-trains-that-make-no-stops.html](http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/11/high-speed-trains-that-make-no-stops.html) Yeah, but that site has links to Zero Point Energy and Magic Wands that heal (“Quantum Value Original Japanese Technology Nano Zero Point Energy Wand Pen”) and Tesla Free Energy Generators. I wouldn’t put much stock in the rest of the site, either. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/94 "2012-07-21T22:32:50Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Would any of you actually take a 100mph automated inter-city bus between SF and LA rather than driving or taking an airline flight? Sure, I’d consider it. But such a bus service would obviously need its own dedicated road and very extensive control and safety infrastructure. In other words, to approach the speed and reliability of HSR, or even much more modest improvements to conventional rail, the “bus” ends up about the same as a train on tires. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/95 "2012-07-22T03:07:43Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Sure, I’d consider it. But such a bus service would obviously need its own dedicated road and very extensive control and safety infrastructure. In other words, to approach the speed and reliability of HSR, or even much more modest improvements to conventional rail, the “bus” ends up about the same as a train on tires. But buses have much finer granularity. It is hard to have a train leave every half hour and the schedule can be adjusted so the buses don’t need to travel half empty. The big advantage planes have that the schedule can be adjusted so they are 80% full. I’ve already pointed out that HSR is an energy hog. I think regular inter-city bus that travel at regular speeds in regular lanes is the winning combination. The schedules are constantly adjusted so the buses travel most mostly full so they don’t waste full hauling empty seats from Los Angles to San Francisco. Robobuses would be even better, since we wouldn’t need more drivers to be able to adjust for demand. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/96 "2012-07-22T03:23:56Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Yeah, but that site has links to Zero Point Energy and Magic Wands that heal (“Quantum Value Original Japanese Technology Nano Zero Point Energy Wand Pen”) and Tesla Free Energy Generators. I wouldn’t put much stock in the rest of the site, either. Okay here is a link directly to the article: [http://www.priestmangoode.com/transport/](http://www.priestmangoode.com/transport/) Or do you want to continue using Crap by Association rebuttal? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/97 "2012-07-22T03:51:13Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Okay here is a link directly to the article: > > [http://www.priestmangoode.com/transport/](http://www.priestmangoode.com/transport/) > > Or do you want to continue using Crap by Association rebuttal? No, I think it’s a crap idea all by itself, dressed up in a sexy, sleek design. Never happen – it requires too much infrastructure for too little gain. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/98 "2012-07-22T11:43:23Z")
I guess the real question is: is it moral for taxpayers to be FORCED to pay for uneconomic make work projects. Yes, it would be nice to be able to take a high speed train for LA to SF-but if the true ticket price is $1200 , who would ever take it? Of course, the price will be $200 (the taxpayers pay the other $1000). Federal projects have a way of spiraling out of control (see “Big Dig” Boston), and as long as the its the taxpayer’s money, who really cares. Of course, that is why we have a $15 trillion national debt. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/99 "2012-07-22T18:15:24Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I guess the real question is: is it moral for taxpayers to be FORCED to pay for uneconomic make work projects. Yes, it would be nice to be able to take a high speed train for LA to SF-but if the true ticket price is $1200 , who would ever take it? Of course, the price will be $200 (the taxpayers pay the other $1000). > Federal projects have a way of spiraling out of control (see “Big Dig” Boston), and as long as the its the taxpayer’s money, who really cares. > Of course, that is why we have a $15 trillion national debt. How many people are even going to pay $200 when a bus ticket is $29? That is what Megabus costs from Orlando to Atlanta. It sounds like it will be limited to the rich and people on an expense account. For regular people it would be better to take the red eye and wake up in San Francisco. There seem to be some sort of class element involved where riding a high speed train is okay, but taking a bus is infra dig. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/100 "2012-07-22T18:36:00Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Federal projects have a way of spiraling out of control (see “Big Dig” Boston), and as long as the its the taxpayer’s money, who really cares. > Of course, that is why we have a $15 trillion national debt. No, we have a debt that size because… …you know what, why even bother. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457.md?page=6)