# Is High-Speed Rail a good idea for California? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 16, 2012, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457 "2012-07-16T23:51:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/142 "2015-01-16T21:12:00Z")
Elon Musk thinks he or someone else could build his hyperloop between LA & SF for a tiny fraction of the cost, and sooner. > **[Elon Musk Moves Forward With Multi-Billion Dollar Hyperloop Idea](https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/elon-musk-moves-forward-multi-billion-dollar-hyperloop/story?id=28271402)** > > Elon Musk's dream for the Hyperloop, a tube-like high-speed transportation system, is moving forward. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/143 "2015-01-17T03:52:06Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > So your complaint is actually a bunch of other things? Have you ever been on a high speed train? If not, what exactly do you know about the rider experience? > > There are plenty of criticisms of this project, but the argument that high speed trains are not fast and convenient is not one of them. People who live with and use high speed trains are pretty unanimous on this. > > Using this argument only undermines your point, because they make you look like you are just stubbornly resistant to something that is new to you, rather than making a reasoned argument. Ive made several reasoned arguments. Another reasoned argument would be that the majority of passengers would be businesspeople. Why should we subsidize them? Yet another is that our cities are geographically far larger than Japanese or Euro cities. What good would a highspeed train be in Los Angeles when the vast majority of passengers would be miles from it? There are regional airports that are much more convenient. Also, the promises made in the 2008 bond initiative have been broken consistently…as the linked non-partisan report acknowledges… [http://www.lao.ca.gov/analysis/2012/transportation/high-speed-rail-041712.aspx](http://www.lao.ca.gov/analysis/2012/transportation/high-speed-rail-041712.aspx) and another report… > **[Berkeley News](https://news.berkeley.edu)** > > Berkeley News is UC Berkeley’s main news and information engine. Stories are posted daily by the team of writers, editors and digital media producers in the Editorial Services and Media Relations sections of the Office of Communications and Public... We as a state have so many more pressing needs for the money. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/144 "2015-01-17T04:00:14Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I think it would make more sense to have a high-speed rail line from L.A. to Las Vegas. Everybody goes to Las Vegas. Given the rivalry between Southern California and Central Coast California though, it wouldn’t be political. You know what would be cheaper than a high-speed rail line between LA and Vegas? Permitting gambling in California. Vegas & Reno would become ghost towns overnight. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/145 "2015-01-17T04:01:19Z")
> [@BOOM](#): > > Roads are also generally subsidised, right - both in build and maintenance? > > The train is just beautiful and relaxing; good seat space, city centre to city centre, great views, plenty of room to walk - airports and airplanes are just stressful Large Californian cities generally have no city centers. These are cities built to accommodate the automobile. Trains are also a sinkhole of financial waste and mismanagement… > **[California High-Speed Rail—More Questions and Concerns](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/08/high-speed-rail-more-questions/379046/)** > > "Bad, bad, bad," and other critiques ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/146 "2015-01-17T04:02:33Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > You know what would be cheaper than a high-speed rail line between LA and Vegas? Permitting gambling in California. Vegas & Reno would become ghost towns overnight. There is already tons of legalized Vegas style gambling in California…see Morongo for example. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/147 "2017-01-14T21:21:25Z")
A horrible idea after all and gonna cost billions more than estimated. No way this will be competitive with airtravel > **[California's bullet train is hurtling toward a multibillion-dollar overrun, a...](https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-bullet-cost-overruns-20170106-story.html)** > > California’s bullet train could cost taxpayers 50% more than estimated — as much as $3.6 billion more. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/148 "2017-01-14T21:27:52Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I love the _idea_, but, in practice, I don’t think enough people will take it. > > If I were the guy in charge, I’d work to expand _low_ speed rail, cargo rail, car carriers, etc. Compete with the airlines on the basis of _price_. > > Who the hell _needs_ to be in San Francisco in three hours? Tomorrow is fine. If the matter is urgent, just use telepresence (telephone, video conference, computer sharing, etc.) If the matter is _deadly_ urgent, fly. > > It’s creating a “middle ground” where one just isn’t needed. > > (Besides, if you drive, you can stop at the Harris Ranch restaurant in Coalinga. Spend the money you save on a big honkin’ steak dinner. Try the “rocky mountain oysters!”) > > Far more important is that the cities improve bus service. We’ve got to use our cars a lot less, and that means decent urban transit. I wish you were the Governor. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2017, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/149 "2017-01-16T23:45:49Z")
It’s interesting the project’s reliance on federal money - I wonder if it will dry-up with the transition to the new administration, and kill the project. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/150 "2017-01-17T01:00:21Z")
It’s interesting that in a few years China has built a 12,500 mile high speed rail network and will add another 10,000 miles by 2025. > **[China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network](https://www.economist.com/china/2017/01/13/china-has-built-the-worlds-largest-bullet-train-network)** > > And there’s a lot more to come. But is it a waste of money? So why can China do this but the United States can’t? ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/151 "2017-01-17T01:27:11Z")
Los Angeles and surrounding areas are filling up. Land close to the city has reached prices that companies are not willing to spend. A rail system could open up out lying areas and spur some growth throughout the valley. People will not have to be quite as concerned about living close to their job. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/152 "2017-01-17T01:40:03Z")
But that has nothing to do with high-speed rail. That has to do with mass transit. Completely different subject. A good rail system connecting Lancaster/Palmdale and the San Fernando Valley would be a godsend for people in SoCal. Hell, just run a couple of lines up to Oxnard and out to Yucca Valley. Triple the trains Metrolink is now running and then we’ll talk. If you insist on high-speed, then a line linking San Diego, LA, Bakersfield, Fresno and Sacramento would be the ideal. Just tie it into BART somewhere for people who live in the Bay Area. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/153 "2017-01-17T02:37:07Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > It’s interesting that in a few years China has built a 12,500 mile high speed rail network and will add another 10,000 miles by 2025. > [China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network](http://www.economist.com/news/china/21714383-and-theres-lot-more-come-it-waste-money-china-has-built-worlds-largest) > > So why can China do this but the United States can’t? Cheap labor, meaningless environmental laws, and the ability to appropriate land at will. Basically if the Chinese government wants it there are no restrictions to it’s construction. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/154 "2017-01-17T02:39:59Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > I know this is an old thread, but I wanted to add an update - it appears the project is [making enemies](http://news.yahoo.com/begins-calif-bullet-train-locals-angry-140856521.html) with the very people they originally said they were going to help: > Even with such opposition, it appears it is full-steam ahead with this project. The guy they mention is one of my customers. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/155 "2017-01-17T06:08:42Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Cheap labor, meaningless environmental laws, and the ability to appropriate land at will. > > Basically if the Chinese government wants it there are no restrictions to it’s construction. Plus a huge population to support it by actually using it. For all its population, California is big and empty compared to most parts of China. I definitely agree with **Trinopus** , there are many much more important places to spend this kind of money. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/156 "2017-01-18T00:45:07Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > Los Angeles and surrounding areas are filling up. Land close to the city has reached prices that companies are not willing to spend. A rail system could open up out lying areas and spur some growth throughout the valley. People will not have to be quite as concerned about living close to their job. If you found a way to drop a station at Disneyland you could probably convince Disney to finance it. Fresno and north would probably happily hop a train to Disneyland instead of driving, I sure would. Faster, not have to drive, probably a push on fuel costs. Between the major communities of the central valley, this could easily be hundreds if not thousands of riders a day. The existing line terminates next to Angels Stadium…meh. A Bakersfield to Las Vegas line would probably turn into a solid option as well. Would be interesting to see how much of a boost the Casinos at Primm if a line went there. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/157 "2017-01-18T01:35:25Z")
From what I see trains never make money unless they can haul both people and freight. Across western Kansas trains can hit over 50 mph or more when they are hauling freight (coal is big) and that is very profitable. But then they are also hooked to existing railyards. So a train can go directly into a terminal and then those containers are put right onto trucks and hauled off. So I would only see it if the system could also handle frieght. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/158 "2017-01-18T02:47:09Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > If you found a way to drop a station at Disneyland you could probably convince Disney to finance it. Fresno and north would probably happily hop a train to Disneyland instead of driving, I sure would. Faster, not have to drive, probably a push on fuel costs. Between the major communities of the central valley, this could easily be hundreds if not thousands of riders a day. The existing line terminates next to Angels Stadium…meh. > > A Bakersfield to Las Vegas line would probably turn into a solid option as well. Would be interesting to see how much of a boost the Casinos at Primm if a line went there. What you’re suggesting was the business model for interurban lines. They built amusement parks along their lines to build ridership. That had a good run before Henry Ford came out with an affordable car. To do this today there needs to be a solid benefit involved. Cost, time , less hassle, a place to go to … it has to be something that really stands out. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/159 "2017-01-18T04:34:50Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > From what I see trains never make money unless they can haul both people and freight. Across western Kansas trains can hit over 50 mph or more when they are hauling freight (coal is big) and that is very profitable. > > But then they are also hooked to existing railyards. So a train can go directly into a terminal and then those containers are put right onto trucks and hauled off. > > So I would only see it if the system could also handle frieght. I believe there are technical reasons not to put freight on the same lines used for high-speed passenger rail. As for making money, do you judge other infrastructure projects on the same basis; are highways and airports a failure if they don’t operate at a profit? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/160 "2017-01-18T05:15:34Z")
It is funny that people expect government trains to make a profit, but they never expect government roads to make a profit. Americans deserve roads paid for by the taxpayers so they can drive their cars on public infrastructure like God intended. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457/161 "2017-01-18T12:27:10Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I believe there are technical reasons not to put freight on the same lines used for high-speed passenger rail. > > As for making money, do you judge other infrastructure projects on the same basis; are highways and airports a failure if they don’t operate at a profit? Well I think highways are different because anyone can jump on it, whether your in a car, motorcycle, or even horse and buggy, and go anywhere you want. Its a doorstep to doorstep pathway. Another, that highway directly hooks onto local roads. I can go from a 4 lane interstate to a small dirt road in minutes if I want to. Those roads are paid for by local communities. Now contrast that with a train. Only trains can use them. I dont know maybe there are some local, privately owned spurs here and there but its mostly the major rail lines. And if you as a passenger, you have no choice where your picked up or dropped off which can be miles from your starting or ending point. So profit or not, a highway does what its supposed to do, get you from one place to another and most important it’s where YOU want to go. Not just where a rail line leads. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-high-speed-rail-a-good-idea-for-california/628457.md?page=9)