# Is Hillary Clinton a serious contender for the 2008 Democratic Pres. candidacy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 27, 2004, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729 "2004-12-27T02:16:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/41 "2004-12-27T14:48:11Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Well, a big part of the problem is that she wasn’t the…you know…PRESIDENT! Many of us felt she had no damn right whatsoever to closet herself with a bunch of her cronies and secretly cook up socialist schemes to “care” for us when no one had voted for her in the first place. No one votes for the Cabinet secretaries either, but nobody questions their legitimacy. And it was obvious well before November 1992 that Bill’s wife was not going to be an apolitical, humble-helpmate, Barbara Bush kind of First Lady. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/42 "2004-12-27T14:51:00Z")
> [@Arwin](#): > > Now here’s something to mull over - Clinton vs Rice. That’s a classic, historical, epic proportions kind of election that could give the U.S.’ the kick in the butt it needs, lest it remains stuck in a mid-20th century mentality forever. That it would – but I don’t think the Pubbies have come **quite** far enough yet to nominate an African-American woman for the top spot, whatever her politics, credentials or experience. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/43 "2004-12-27T14:52:12Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > However, I do agree that Hillary is polarising. I love the idea of a female POTUS, but I don’t think it’s gonna be Hillary. The reasons are more complex than the health care issue. Could you expand on that? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/44 "2004-12-27T15:01:31Z")
> [@Arwin](#): > > The irony of course is that the U.S. is the wealthiest country in the world, with the highest BNP. But considering the poverty rates, which are embarassing, they seem to be making that money over the backs of parts of its own population and its environment, like in many other countries that have a similar gap between rich and poor (say, India, many Arab states, etc). > > If we look at history, the U.S. is showing all the signs of a world-power past its peak. No, I really don’t think we can draw that kind of lesson from history – at least, not since the Industrial Revolution changed everything forever and gave us a world where the conditions of life are radically different for every generation and, nowadays, every decade. For instance, the most recent instance of a “world-power past its peak” was the Soviet Union, which was decidedly **not** characterized by a wide gap between rich and poor (though it was, indeed, characterized by environmental devastation). And the most recent example before that was the British Empire, which **was** characterized by a wide gap between rich and poor, but that gap was steadily narrowing when the Empire ended. The BE was undone more by rising national consciousness in its subject peoples than by any social conditions in the UK or in its colonies. In the case of the U.S. today, the things that most threaten our superpower status are a whopping budget deficit, an overextended military establishment, a precariously debt-driven consumer economy, and the imminent exhaustion of our supply of cheap, imported petroleum. And the latter two are factors no superpower in history before now has ever had to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/45 "2004-12-27T15:16:00Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > This is kind of a nitpick - and I’m kind of surprised you said it (considering the gist of your posts) - but most Americans _do_ favour universal health care. At least according to most polls taken over the last few years. I’ll provide cites if you insist, but a quick google will settle it. I’d be interested in those cites. If so, clearly their elected representatives don’t. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/46 "2004-12-27T15:54:41Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > I’d be interested in those cites. If so, clearly their elected representatives don’t. Here’s a couple from last year: [http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2003-10-19-health-poll\_x.htm](http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2003-10-19-health-poll_x.htm) **Poll: Public supports health care for all** > [@](#): > > By almost a 2-1 margin in this poll, 62% to 32%, Americans said they preferred a universal system that would provide coverage to everyone under a government program, as opposed to the current employer-based system. [http://www.pnhp.org/news/2003/october/majority\_of\_american.php](http://www.pnhp.org/news/2003/october/majority_of_american.php) **Majority of Americans Support National Health Insurance October 20, 2003** > [@](#): > > By a 2:1 margin (62 percent to 32 percent), an ABC News - Washington Post Poll released today found that the public favors national health insurance to “the current health insurance system, in which most people get their health insurance from private employers, but some people have no insurance” > > “What’s new about this groundswell of public support for single payer is that it includes the middle-class… > > …The poll also found that 8 in 10 people think it is important to cover all the uninsured “even if it means higher taxes”. To avoid the idea of "cherry picking, I direct you [here](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&c2coff=1&q=universal+health+care+polls&btnG=Search), for general google results, based on “universal health care polls”. Here’s a more diverse cite from 2000: [http://www.policyattitudes.org/OnlineReports/Healthcare/findings\_3.html](http://www.policyattitudes.org/OnlineReports/Healthcare/findings_3.html) > [@](#): > > A July 2000 Washington Post/Kaiser/Harvard study presented a set of questions with similar wording. First the survey asked, “Generally speaking, should the federal government work to increase the number of Americans covered by health insurance, or is this not something the federal government should be doing?” Seventy-two percent favored government action, and just 24% did not. Those who wanted the government to work to increase insurance coverage were then asked, using the same language as above, how much of an effort they preferred. Fifty-two percent (38% of all respondents) wanted the government to make a major effort even if that meant a tax increase, while 43% (31% of the total sample) wanted the government to make a limited effort that would not require a tax increase. Really depends on how it is “framed”, although IMO the impetus is clear (in any case, not directly related to Hillary Clinton). ---
**Author:** ![Arwin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Arwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arwin)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/47 "2004-12-27T15:54:52Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, I really don’t think we can draw that kind of lesson from history – at least, not since the Industrial Revolution changed everything forever and gave us a world where the conditions of life are radically different for every generation and, nowadays, every decade. Ah but I didn’t mean the symptoms I pointed out are symptoms of all falling kingdowns throughout history - they are never quite the same on that level. But on a more general level, what you see is that a nation is ahead, consolidates, stops traveling, builds its tower and ends up getting stuck in it (a lot of symbolism in The Lord of the Rings referring to this) while the world around it evolves, changes. (for more literary references I see a lot of paralels between New York now and Venice in Shakespeare’s time). ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/48 "2004-12-27T16:03:30Z")
For those of my fellow Democrats who think a Hillary Clinton candidacy is a good idea, I have a question: What state do you think Hillary Clinton would win that John Kerry did not? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/49 "2004-12-27T16:04:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No one votes for the Cabinet secretaries either, but nobody questions their legitimacy. And it was obvious well before November 1992 that Bill’s wife was not going to be an apolitical, humble-helpmate, Barbara Bush kind of First Lady. Actually, fifty-one senators must vote for a Cabinet secretary. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/50 "2004-12-27T16:17:34Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > For those of my fellow Democrats who think a Hillary Clinton candidacy is a good idea, I have a question: > > What state do you think Hillary Clinton would win that John Kerry did not? Florida. Split down the middle (on fact, I’m still not entirely convinced Kerry **didn’t** win Florida, if you know what I mean), and Hillary could mobilize certain key demographics enough to tip the balance. Some women who have never voted Democrat in their lives before might cross the line and vote for Hillary, just because she’s a woman and they might never get another chance. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/51 "2004-12-27T16:23:53Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Hillary was a leading contender for 2008 right up until John Kerry lost and everyone realized that east coast liberals have a hard time getting elected. The Democrats are going to go looking for a southern governor next time, or a populist figure that can penetrate the red states. That’s simply the reality of electoral politics. I agree that is what the Dems should do, and even what the Dems WOULD do if the candidates were picked by the party leaders. But they’re not. The candidate is picked by each and every Democrat who either gives money to or votes for the candidate in the primaries. IOW, don’t rule out HRC as the Dem candidate in '08. I think primary voters will be less worred about “electability” since they generally won’t have any idea against whom their candidate will be running-- no “anyone but Bush” rallying cry out there. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/52 "2004-12-27T16:55:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > [@spoke-](#): > > > > For those of my fellow Democrats who think a Hillary Clinton candidacy is a good idea, I have a question: > > > > What state do you think Hillary Clinton would win that John Kerry did not? > > Florida. Split down the middle (on fact, I’m still not entirely convinced Kerry **didn’t** win Florida, if you know what I mean), and Hillary could mobilize certain key demographics enough to tip the balance. Some women who have never voted Democrat in their lives before might cross the line and vote for Hillary, just because she’s a woman and they might never get another chance. She would alienate more than she would mobilize, I’ll wager. And she would energize the opposition. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/53 "2004-12-27T17:03:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Florida. Split down the middle (on fact, I’m still not entirely convinced Kerry **didn’t** win Florida, if you know what I mean), and Hillary could mobilize certain key demographics enough to tip the balance. Some women who have never voted Democrat in their lives before might cross the line and vote for Hillary, just because she’s a woman and they might never get another chance. I don’t know what you mean. Can you be specific and give us the actual evidence you have that Kerry didn’t really lose Florida? And what about all the men who waver between voting Dem and Pub and who would vote against her? Hillary would be a disaster for the Democrats-- not that that would stop them from nominating her. I think you’d see a large “anyone but Hil” vote going to the Republicans. Justified or not, she racked up a large amount of negative sentiment while Bill was the prez, and it’s really hard to shake that sentiment off. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/54 "2004-12-27T17:10:33Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Some women who have never voted Democrat in their lives before might cross the line and vote for Hillary, just because she’s a woman and they might never get another chance. Worked so damned well for Ferrarro, didn’t it? Sure, Hillary could be a serious contender for the 2008 nomination. She has massive name recognition, and can access the same massive fundraising network her husband had. If she _wants_ the nomination, chances are that she’ll get it. If she _doesn’t_ want it, no one will force her into it. Does she want it? No idea. But people spouting “Hillary’s candidacy is just Republican propaganda” are ignoring the actual facts on the ground. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/55 "2004-12-27T17:20:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > on fact, I’m still not entirely convinced Kerry didn’t win Florida, if you know what I mean I’m hoping you are kidding on this. I could see Ohio MAYBE being a bitch point (I still think Bush took it)…but Florida??? Come on. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That it would – but I don’t think the Pubbies have come quite far enough yet to nominate an African-American woman for the top spot, whatever her politics, credentials or experience. I disagree…I think Rice is being groomed for the top spot in '08. Now, whether she gets the nomination or not is way up in the air…depends on how GW’s term turns out and how much of it splashes on her if things go bad. But I think you are locked into an incorrect mindset about the 'Pubs if you think they wouldn’t put forth Rice merely because she is black and a woman. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But he came damed close, didn’t he? Never forget that. He came damn close (well, not really…3 million votes is a pretty fair margin but I’ll play along) alright…but he came damn close against Bush for gods sake. Lets put it another way…if the Dems couldn’t beat Bush, who DO they think they can beat with candidates like Kerry?? Next time the 'Pubs won’t be handycapped (in theory anyway) with another unpopular and polarizing figure like Bush after all. I agree with you about one thing though…Hillary is no socialist. In fact, for a Democrat she is reasonably moderate (leaving aside the healthcare thing, which I doubt she would actually try and push forward if she were elected…much like her husband dropped it when it didn’t get much traction). Her problem is one of baggage…much of it her husband, some of it her own. She simply rubbed a lot of people the wrong way when she was first lady, and even afterwards when she was a senator. And unlike rjungs statement, not all of those people are foaming at the mouth conservative zombie types…some are centrist moderates. I really don’t think she would be the optimal candidate for the Dems…but I do think that she is going to put her hat in the ring and that she has a fair chance of winning the nomination. I just don’t think she has a fair chance of winning the election, though that will depend on how bad things go under Bush…and who the 'Pubs ultimately run. -XT ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/56 "2004-12-27T17:32:51Z")
I’m looking at 41 years old, and Geraldine Ferraro didn’t mean shit to me, and _Ain’t I a woman_??? It’s not about that. It’s more about the internal struggles of the Democratic Party. Hillary is DLC, and the DLC is not assured of ascendancy at this time. I haven’t heard of any high profile Democrats shilling her so far - so for now it’s just Republican porn, AFAIK. The GOP has it’s own internal struggles to deal with too. Is Jeb a done deal, or is it Guiliani, or…?? _Way too soon_ for those arguments… So what else have y’all got? Hillary is My Own Senator, and I’m not completely happy with her, but I will say - she’s no slacker. I will - as I have done- defend her against _baseless_ smears. So, what else have y’all got? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/57 "2004-12-27T17:33:49Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > She would alienate more than she would mobilize, I’ll wager. And she would energize the opposition. > [@John Mace](#): > > And what about all the men who waver between voting Dem and Pub and who would vote against her? Once again, **why?** We’re on the second page of this thread and I still don’t understand the root of this “Hillary is hateful” meme. She’s **not** a socialist, she’s not even a liberal by the standards of the LBJ era, she’s only a feminist in the sense that she’s an upwardly mobile career woman, and how many men are left in America who would vote against a woman just because she’s a woman? > [@John Corrado](#): > > Worked so damned well for Ferrarro, didn’t it? Not comparable and you know it. Mondale couldn’t have taken it in 1984 if his running mate had been Jesus. > [@John Mace](#): > > I don’t know what you mean. Can you be specific and give us the actual evidence you have that Kerry didn’t really lose Florida? I just said “I’m not entirely convinced,” not that there’s evidence you could take to court. The infuriating thing about this election is that circumstances are such that we may never **know** the truth. But see [http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1106-30.htm;](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1106-30.htm;) [http://www.washingtondispatch.com/spectrum/archives/000715.html;](http://www.washingtondispatch.com/spectrum/archives/000715.html;) [http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20041129&s=corn;](http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20041129&s=corn;) [http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20041206&s=corn2;](http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20041206&s=corn2;) [http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/was\_the\_2004\_election\_stolen/](http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/was_the_2004_election_stolen/). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/58 "2004-12-27T17:37:14Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > But I think you are locked into an incorrect mindset about the 'Pubs if you think they wouldn’t put forth Rice merely because she is black and a woman. If they do, they’re going to lose a lot of the Southern white-conservative base that has been the key to their success ever since 1968. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/59 "2004-12-27T17:38:17Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > Hillary is DLC, and the DLC is not assured of ascendancy at this time. From your lips! ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/60 "2004-12-27T17:49:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > From your lips! _If only!_ Again, _way too soon_ for these arguments. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729.md?page=4)