# Is Hillary Clinton a serious contender for the 2008 Democratic Pres. candidacy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 27, 2004, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729 "2004-12-27T02:16:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/81 "2004-12-27T22:02:40Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > the Clinton health care plan did in fact exist. It was in fact a proposed massive socialization of a huge part of our economy and it was in fact a perfect example of the kind of central planning that drives most Americans nuts. And yet, oddly enough, the major health insurers were in favor of her plan, since it was an extension of the existing employer-based systems and meant guaranteed revenues for them. It was [killed by Republicans for solely political reasons:](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/forum/may96/background/health_debate_page2.html) > [@](#): > > **December 2, 1993** - Leading conservative operative William Kristol privately circulates a strategy document to Republicans in Congress. Kristol writes that congressional Republicans should work to “kill” – not amend – the Clinton plan because it presents a real danger to the Republican future: Its passage will give the Democrats a lock on the crucial middle-class vote and revive the reputation of the party. Nearly a full year before Republicans will unite behind the “Contract With America,” Kristol has provided the rationale and the steel for them to achieve their aims of winning control of Congress and becoming America’s majority party. Killing health care will serve both ends. The timing of the memo dovetails with a growing private consensus among Republicans that all-out opposition to the Clinton plan is in their best political interest. > [@manhattan](#): > > I think your analysis of who Senator Clinton is has a lot of merit to it, but the widespread perception that she’s far to the left of that is not some plot by the VRWC – she created it herself. Your claim merely serves to demonstrate the pervasiveness of the right-wing propaganda machine. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/82 "2004-12-27T22:10:56Z")
Most politicians crave power. HRC is no different. I’d be surprised if ANY sitting Senator would demure from running for prez if (s)he thought (s)he had a chance of winning. Currently, [HRC ranks #1 for the '08 nomination among democratic voters who have an opinion](http://www.pollingreport.com/2008.htm) (check out the Gallop poll, 5th from the top). Granted, it’s awfully early in the cycle, but the data available now indicates HRC will be a leading Democratic candidate for president in '08. A lot could happen between now and then to lessen or strengthen that probability, but the facts are what they are. Anyone dismissing this as “Republican porn” is simply ignoring the facts. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2004, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/83 "2004-12-27T23:56:57Z")
> [@John Corrado](#): > > Yeah, but if you’re going to state with a straight face that some meaningful percentage of women will cross party lines _just_ to vote for a woman, by that same token, some meaningful percentage of women _must_ have crossed lines in 1984 just to vote for a woman. Given how shellacked Mondale was by Reagan, I assert that the percentage of women willing to cross party lines _just_ to vote for a woman is far too small to make the 3-5% difference you’d need to switch Florida. It would make a big, big difference if the woman were at the **top** of the ticket. > [@John Corrado](#): > > As for your fantasies that the Republicans stole the election- I’d point out to you that all you have for cites are five “progressive” newspapers. > > Cite #1 contains just as many explanations for why the numbers could be right as it does dubious allegations that the numbers were hacked. > Cite #2 claims a discrepancy, and lays it all at the feet of a _Democrat_ in charge of the county. > Cite #3 firmly states “Those who say [that there was fraud]–at this point–are relying more on supposition than evidence.” > Cite #4 states “But suspicion needs reality checks” and debunks two claims of fraud. > Cite #5 calls Dick Morris, a major supporter and advisor to President Clinton “A Republican pollster”; then raises the same allegations that Cite #1 also provided reasonable explanations for. Hey, but at least I got you to **read**'em! 😉 In this year of grace, I feel inclined to view that as a major achievement. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/84 "2004-12-28T00:05:51Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Hillary isn’t “hateful”; she’s hated, although not by me as I merely detest her. I reserve hate for the likes of Bin Laden, Zarqawi and Hussein, to name a few. However, whenever someone tells you why she is so widely disliked in this country, you merely argue with them rather than acknowledging what they are telling you. Perhaps you’d understand better if you were more interested in listening to the reasons why people don’t like her instead of arguing with those who try to explain it to you. What? The only reasons I’ve read on his thread are: 1. Her politics are “polarizing” or “socialist” or so on. Pure bullshit. She’s aligned with the DLC, the most conservative, probusiness wing of the party. 2. She ruffled too many feathers by trying to be Clinton’s “co-president.” An objection that made no sense at the time, and how can it be relevant now? 3. She’s “smug,” “condescending,” or “bitchy.” Not true. Care to argue the contrary, with specific examples? Besides, **all** successful politicians have bloated egos. A humble politician is like a cowardly soldier. 4. She’s a “northeastern liberal.” In fact she is neither. 5. She reminds people of Bill. But nowadays, he’s remembered fondly even by many Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/85 "2004-12-28T00:13:52Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Socialized health care, while you are a supporter of it, I am not. Her views on it are an immediate turn off. I would never support any person who supported socialized health care. Period. Do you understand why her views on that issue would be a polarizing one? Regardless of your personal feelings on the matter, surely you must admit that there are those that disagree with you for whatever reason. Those people will use her position as a reason to not support her. But this thread is about her chances of winning in the general election – and **most** Americans favor socialized health care, I think this has been pretty well settled as far as this thread goes. > [@Bone](#): > > “it takes a village…” That statement alone is damning. You may agree with its implications, but I do not and find them personally offensive. She represents what I believe to be antiethical to personal freedom. 😕 What on Earth are you talking about? All she says is that children need to be socialized and nurtured by more than just their own families. A statement not only obviously true, but so completely middlebrow and Rotarian in tone that I cannot conceive of how the most radical Libertarian would raise the mildest objection to it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/86 "2004-12-28T00:16:58Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > 1. Her staunchest detractorst don’t just dislike her; they _hate_ her with a burning passion. Put Karl Rove opposite the best Dem. campaign manager you can conceive of; it won’t matter; you’ll see an insurmountable grass-roots upsurge of opposition against HRC that will redefine words like “ugly”, and “brutal”. Satan Himself may as well run for office; at least He would enjoy stirring up the “Silent Majority” of the conservative Christian right. Hillary may have the personal fortitude to withstand the psychological impact of the magnitude of demonization Presidential candidacy will draw, but I’m not sure her party does. Now **that’s** part I’ve been trying to figure out for twelve years no. Political opposition I can understand, even personal distaste I can understand, but why on Earth would anybody **hate** Hillary Clinton? ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/87 "2004-12-28T00:19:02Z")
**BG** : Your problem, you see, is you’re attempting to convince the Hillary-bashers with actual _facts_. Sadly, I think it’s a waste of time. Hillary is hated because, well, she’s Hillary, husband of Bubba Blowjob. People bring up all kinds of speciously salient things, like her association with NE Liberals and Socialized Medicine, and so on; but when their points are picked apart one by one, you’re still left with the reality, which is these folks simply can’t stand her. They can’t figure her out, and really, aren’t all that interested in trying, since their straw-woman suits their purposes much better than the person Hillary actually may be. It’s not fair, and it’s not right, but I don’t think she can prevail over this hatred. This thread alone ought to support that. She’s not a swing-vote magnet; she’s quite the contrary, in fact. Hence, while she may get the nomination, I’d be absolutely shocked to see her win a Presidential election. That’s a cold-day-in-Hell scenerio, in my mind, and I shudder to think what a Hillary-for-Pres. campaign would do to an already bitterly divided country. I must agree with some of the other Hillary Skeptics (though I do not share the disdain and hatred some of them have for her): The Dems likely, perhaps _desperately_ need another male, Christian, Southern populist who, this time around, can keep is fly zipped up (or, at the very least, can be more discreet about his womanizing than Bill was). It’s a sad commentary on the general electorate, but an accurate one, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/88 "2004-12-28T00:26:21Z")
You do realize, don’t you, that you just proved my point 5 times over? Again, do you want to know why people dislike Hillary Clinton like they do, or do you simply want to argue with or dismiss their reasons? I have no particular dog in this fight myself. I’m perfectly content with my dislike of her, ranging from her extraordinary smugness and apparent sense of superiority (probably my main gripe against her on a personal basis), to my perception of her as a devious and willful socialist wanna-be who has the arrogance to deliberately try to go behind our backs into closed room sessions with parties whose identities are kept secret in order to try to hammer out a huge social program which she knows the citizenry would neither like nor approve of, and then try to cram it down our throats. What fucking arrogance! And that, my friend, is why I don’t like Hillary. Others have their reasons. But be that as it may, you continue to profess confusion as to why people don’t like her, only to respond with criticism and dismissal when you hear their reasons. So what is it? Do you want to know what people around the country (of whom we here at the SDMB are only a small percentage) so dislike about her, or do you want to engage in arguments as to whether their reasons are valid in your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/89 "2004-12-28T00:30:06Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > Hillary is hated because, well, she’s Hillary, husband of Bubba Blowjob. …and also because she appears so aggressive and pushy that she’s percieved as Bubba’s _husband_, even among her supporters! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/90 "2004-12-28T00:31:16Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > …husband… Yikes. The meme has hijacked part of my brain. I meant _wife_ of Bubba Blowjob, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/91 "2004-12-28T00:34:34Z")
Of course you did, but still… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/92 "2004-12-28T00:45:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But this thread is about her chances of winning in the general election – and most Americans favor socialized health care, I think this has been pretty well settled as far as this thread goes. > > 😕 What on Earth are you talking about? All she says is that children need to be socialized and nurtured by more than just their own families. A statement not only obviously true, but so completely middlebrow and Rotarian in tone that I cannot conceive of how the most radical Libertarian would raise the mildest objection to it. You were inquiring as to people’s sentiment towards Hillary, not to her actual electability. Actually, I think you were commenting on both, and I chose to response to people’s sentiment. I object to the ‘village’ statement. I believe child-rearing is not the responsibility of society, but of the parents alone. They can enlist help should they so choose, but it is not necessary for them to do so, nor should it be expected or required of anyone else. The Village statement imputes responsibility on society, individuals, to take part in the raising of other people’s children. I see no such responsibility and reject any attempt to put that burden on my shoulders. It also implies a certain necessity of sociatal participation in the raising of other peoples’ children, where I see no such necessity. You may not agree with that position, but it is what it is. If you refuse to acknowledge that, or cannot conceive of that position, I do not think you will gain the understanding you are apparently seeking. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/93 "2004-12-28T01:01:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Now **that’s** part I’ve been trying to figure out for twelve years no. Political opposition I can understand, even personal distaste I can understand, but why on Earth would anybody **hate** Hillary Clinton? I really don’t get it myself. “She’s cold”; “she’s arrogant”; “she’s a socialist”; “she’s an elitist”; “she has betrayed the American wife”; “she’s a ballbreaker”; “she’s a man-hating lesbian seperatist”; “etc.”. Are any of these even _remotely_ accurate? I’ll admit, she was a tad awkward publically; but so was Bush Sr., big time. The health care plan was conceived and vetted poorly in political terms; but I don’t think it was ever really convincingly argued against in terms of its own benefits or deficits. As **rjung** mentioned above, the Plan was simply killed dead as a kind of punishment for uppityness, and there was no attempt to salvage anything from it. For all of Hillary’s political faults at that time, her opposition was all the more egregious for using those faults to score political points through demagoguery without even the pretext of a good-faith effort to reform health care somehow. Hillary should have included all parties in the discussion more, though the results would have been mixed. I think the Republicans showed incredible selfishness by simply destroying the effort for political gain. And as for all the sex-related bullshit: I must admit I’m as mystified by Bill and Hillary’s marriage dynamic as the next fellow, but I really don’t see the relevance. How these bizarre notions of her lesbianism, etc. come up, I have no idea (and who cares if she is a lesbian, for that matter?), but it seems to me, like the article I cited suggests, with Hillary, it’s a lose-lose scenerio: Come across as too much of a feminist, and you’re man-hating dyke. Come across as too little of one, and you’re a sell-out. Sadly, I think somewhere near a majority of women in American actually prefer the apparently contradiction-free persona of Laura Bush: A nice, above-average gal who knows her place, and is happy and content in it. She doesn’t threaten their egos, or make them think too hard about their own compromises in life. Can you imagine if Teresa Heinz-Kerry had become First Lady? What a trip that would have been. Maybe Teresa, Hillary, and Martha Steward could have their own reality show, and call it “The Bitch Is Back”. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/94 "2004-12-28T01:16:14Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > my perception of her as a devious and willful socialist wanna-be who has the arrogance to deliberately try to go behind our backs into closed room sessions with parties whose identities are kept secret in order to try to hammer out a huge social program which she knows the citizenry would neither like nor approve of, and then try to cram it down our throats. What fucking arrogance! What do you think of Cheney’s energy task force? ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/95 "2004-12-28T01:29:03Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > A pretty ironic analysis, considering your chosen username… Wait. What does a rye cocktail have to do with any of this? 😃 > [@rjung](#): > > And yet, oddly enough, the major health insurers were in favor of her plan, since it was an extension of the existing employer-based systems and meant guaranteed revenues for them. Your newfound admiration and respect for the viewpoints of major health insurers as to what is the right thing to do is duly noted, but I think you may be misconstruing the Harry and Louise commercials. > [@rjung](#): > > It was killed by Republicans for solely political reasons: Your “cite” mentions that this memo has surfaced. I was unaware of that – I had thought it was something that the Clintons had talked about, both contemporaneously and in their respective biographies, but that it hadn’t been proven to exist. Since it has surfaced I look forward to you citing the full text of the memo and I thank you in advance for eradicating my ignorance on this point. Quote: > [@rjung](#): > > Your claim merely serves to demonstrate the pervasiveness of the right-wing propaganda machine. Thank you for your fine contribution. You must feel great that your trenchant analysis is now preserved in perpetuity and that future archaeologists may come across it and remark, “wow, that **rjung** is such a smart fellow. No wonder no one could argue with him.” > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > **most** Americans favor socialized health care, I think this has been pretty well settled as far as this thread goes. It has? Where? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/96 "2004-12-28T01:44:41Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > It has? Where? See **annaplurabelle’s** post #46 – highly persuasive, and to this point in the thread never contradicted, let alone refuted. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/97 "2004-12-28T01:46:49Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > How these bizarre notions of her lesbianism, etc. come up, I have no idea . . . WTF? I’m familiar with the “lesbian Hillary” meme as a hoary political **joke,** always good for a cheap laugh on _SNL_ during the Clinton years. Are you trying to tell me there are Americans who actually **believe** it?! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/98 "2004-12-28T01:52:08Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > WTF? I’m familiar with the “lesbian Hillary” meme as a hoary political **joke,** always good for a cheap laugh on _SNL_ during the Clinton years. Are you trying to tell me there are Americans who actually **believe** it?! :eek: Well, it’s an extreme view, but yes, I knew some people who really did believe it, and the tabloids certainly had a field day with stories about Hillary’s lesbian affairs for a while. A Virginian uncle of an ex-g.f. proclaimed Hillary was a “fuckin’ ugly dyke”, and meant it; and oddly enough, one of the women I knew who thought Hillary might be a lesbian was herself a lesbian, who disliked Hillary because she was clearly riding a man’s coattails to the top. Not representin’ and all that. Talk about ironic. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/99 "2004-12-28T01:55:41Z")
Oh, and [here’s](http://www.commercialcloset.org/cgi-bin/iowa/?page=column&record=7) a fun little blurb. Don’t know whether to laugh or cry at that one. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729/100 "2004-12-28T02:11:40Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > See **annaplurabelle’s** post #46 – highly persuasive, and to this point in the thread never contradicted, let alone refuted. Pfft. A poll that only includes the government and your boss? Seems to me like that forces people to choose among unpalatable alternatives. It’s true, unfortunately, that Americans basically want a pony as regards health care. But in fact, only [31 percent](http://www.harrisinteractive.com/news/newsletters/wsjhealthnews/WSJOnline_HI_Health-CarePoll2003vol2_iss12.pdf) of Amercans believe that the government should “own, provide or run” most health insurance, and lesser numbers believe that of other parts of the system. [90% believe that small employers should be able to pool experiences to negotiate and 75% believe in tax credits for private insurance.](http://www.harrisinteractive.com/news/newsletters/wsjhealthnews/WSJOnline_HI_Health-CarePoll2004vol3_iss23.pdf) What jumps out to me is from the first poll, where so many people believe that non-government non-profits ought to be doing so much. Like I said, I want a pony. The weird part is that in some respects, Americans are getting one, of course. There are lots of non-profit institutions providing health care. I suspect that many Americans may not fully appreciate just how much profit is being generated at such places by parties other than the institution itself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-a-serious-contender-for-the-2008-democratic-pres-candidacy/281729.md?page=6)