# Is Hillary Clinton evil? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 14, 2002, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-evil/132211 "2002-10-14T10:20:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-evil/132211/61 "2002-10-14T22:41:37Z")
**Scylla:** > [@](#): > > Tradittionally those that make policy need to be elected or confirmed. It’s part of the system of checks and balances. Actually, that’s untrue. Since time immemorial, presidents have had formal and informal advisors who were never confirmed by the Senate but who still recommend policy to those who actually make it. This is generally a good thing, since you want the people who will be affected by policy to have some input in formulating it (though it also invites the foxes into the henhouse sometimes). You can legitimately complain about Mrs. Clinton’s qualifications to lead the health care task force or whatever it was, but there’s nothing unusual about unelected, unconfirmed people recommending policy to the executive, legislative, and judicial branches. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-evil/132211/62 "2002-10-14T22:53:32Z")
Minty: I think you know what I mean obviously advisors are neither elected nor confirmed (otherwise the Reagan’s would have had a problem with that astrologer.) Hillary’s position was a bit more formal, kinda like if Bush told had appointed his wife Director of Homeland Security (to hyperbolize slightly.) Obviously the appointment of Hillary did not create a constitutional crises. To me though it is was uncomfortably close if not completely over the line. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-evil/132211/63 "2002-10-14T23:01:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElJeffe \* > The reasons I believe the military dislikes Bill Clinton are as follows: > > - He was a draft dodger. That right there probably accounts for 75% of their animosity. That explains all their animosity to the current occupier of the White House, right? > [@](#): > > - He tried to weaken the military during his tenure in office. Damn straight. Cold war was over. _Everyone_ wanted to reduce the military’s budget. > [@](#): > > - He generally showed no respect for soldiers. An unsubtstantiated assertion that strikes me as complete nonsense, considering the many, many times he went out of his way to praise the members of the armed forces for their service to the country. Maybe you can whine that he should have showed “more” respect (whatever that means), but “no” respect? Come on. > [@](#): > > When he would salute them, is was always half-hearted, and done with a certain measure of reservation. Contrast this with GWB, who gives them textbook-salutes and makes it clear that he respects them. Again, these are unsubstantiated, subjective observations that are more than likely to be tainted by pre-existing biases. [quote] > [@](#): > > - He sent them on a bunch of humanitrian missions, which is not really what the military is meant to do. Like Somalia? God, what a disaster that turned out to be. What an idiot the president was for sending them on that mission. > [@](#): > > - He cheated on his wife, then lied about it. This is not tolerated in the military. And you believed it when they told you how righteous and morally correct they are? Sucker! Allow me to offer my personal observation (gathered from growing up around the military during the Reagan era) that military spouses cheat on each other at least as often as civilian spouses. Absolutely commonplace. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-evil/132211/64 "2002-10-14T23:23:09Z")
But **Scylla** , what I’m telling you is that presidents appoint unelected, unconfirmed people to formal and informal commissions _all the time_. [Here](http://www.edweek.org/ew/newstory.cfm?slug=42speced_web.h21) is just one example, where a Bush-appointed commission recommended private school vouchers as a great way to spend federal education money. May I assume you are outraged at the existence of this commission? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-evil/132211/65 "2002-10-14T23:24:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Hillary’s position was a bit more formal, kinda like if Bush told had appointed his wife Director of Homeland Security (to hyperbolize slightly.) Slightly. Yes. Indeed. In her position as Ultimate Czar of Health Care studies, she had a staff. She could fire them, most likely. That was the extent of her executive power. She could not impose her views on anyone, she could make no laws, she couldn’t subpoena any health insurance company records. She could gather intelligence, and make recommendations. Period. You have a positive genius for understatement when speaking Spinish. ---
**Author:** ![JDM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/90db22/32.png) [@JDM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JDM)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-evil/132211/66 "2002-10-15T12:24:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElJeffe \* > \*\* > The reasons I believe the military dislikes Bill Clinton are as follows: > > - He was a draft dodger. That right there probably accounts for 75% of their animosity. \*\* Actually he was not a draft dodger- he took advantage of the deferments that were available to him, legally, at the time. He did speak out against the Vietnam war, however. > [@](#): > > \*\*- He generally showed no respect for soldiers. When he would salute them, is was always half-hearted, and done with a certain measure of reservation. Contrast this with GWB, who gives them textbook-salutes and makes it clear that he respects them. \*\*[Well…](http://www.time.com/time/potw/20010629/6.html) JDM ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-evil/132211/67 "2002-10-15T13:30:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*But **Scylla** , what I’m telling you is that presidents appoint unelected, unconfirmed people to formal and informal commissions _all the time_. [Here](http://www.edweek.org/ew/newstory.cfm?slug=42speced_web.h21) is just one example, where a Bush-appointed commission recommended private school vouchers as a great way to spend federal education money. > > May I assume you are outraged at the existence of this commission? \*\* No. I wasn’t outraged at Hillary. I just thought it was wrong. Why should this confront me? You seem to be arguing something other than my point. I recall the speech where Hillary received her appointment. It seemed to me that she was being imbued with policymaking power rather than a simple advisory post. She was “put in charge (I think the words were,”) of reforming healthcare. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-evil/132211/68 "2002-10-15T13:41:16Z")
It’s not like she was given the power to change the health care system by fiat. What she was put in charge of was a commission, exactly like untold numbers of other presidential commissions, that made policy recommendations to the president and Congress. As you may recall, those recommendations were continualy tweaked by the president and his staff, and were eventually soundly rejected by Congress. In other words, the system worked just fine. The only difference is that the policy wonk that time was married to the president. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-evil/132211/69 "2002-10-15T14:11:40Z")
> [@](#): > > The only difference is that the policy wonk that time was married to the president. Yes, and that seems to have been her primary qualification. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-evil/132211/70 "2002-10-15T14:25:08Z")
Goodness, politiciancs asking people they know for policy advice? The Republic is doomed! ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-evil/132211/71 "2002-10-15T14:32:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*Goodness, politiciancs asking people they know for policy advice? The Republic is doomed! \*\* You know my point. Why are you playing around it. I find the appointment extremely innapropriate because Hillary was unqualified for the position, was not a public representative, wielded considerable power already as the First Lady, and it was not presented as merely heading a commission. Bill Clinton, the President at the time made it clear that he was appointing his wife the job of reforming healthcare in a public speech. Your opinion may vary. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-evil/132211/72 "2002-10-15T14:45:12Z")
I understand your point–I just think it’s incorrect and silly. Hillary was an accomplished attorney with decades of experience in politics and public policy. To the extent you think she was presented as Health-Care Dictator, that’s simply a matter of perception; in reality, she reported to the president and to the Congress, just like every other member of every other presidential commission. So I really don’t see a rational distinction between Hillary and, say Vernon Jordan, Dick Morris, or any other unelected, unconfirmed advisor. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-evil/132211/73 "2002-10-15T14:56:29Z")
All of ElJeffe’s statements are garbage. GWB was a draft dodger (and an AWOL, cokehead, drunk). Clinton was NOT. Bush senior was the one who began reducing the military and was also the one who sent troops to Somalia. Who gives a shit about a fucking salute? Adultery in the military is commonplace. I KNOW. I was IN military service overseas. Let me tell you, the whorehouses are FILLED with married GI’s on the week-ends. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-evil/132211/74 "2002-10-15T14:57:08Z")
Another problem that Hilary encountered was that the commission she headed was supposed to be meeting in public, and held meetings in private instead. My memory is that she began by denying that any meetings were ever held in secret, although I believe later meetings were, in fact, held publicly. Am I mistaken on this? I suspect 90% of Hilary’s image problems were caused by her association with her husband. Similar issues were encountered with other First Ladies and relatives of Presidents. Who would ever have cared how much money Billy Carter got from the Libyans if his brother were not President? Nancy Reagan goes to an astrologer. Hilary has meetings where they are sort of channeling the spirit of Eleanor Roosevelt. In both cases, it gives the opposition a chance to laugh at their husbands, and their sympathizers to leap to their defense. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-evil/132211/75 "2002-10-15T15:11:39Z")
Minty: I got this from a BBC website. I think it’s a fair summary of the facts, and my objection: > [@](#): > > January 25, 1993 - Clinton announces the formation of The President’s Task Force on National Health Reform. The job of the task force, he says, is to “prepare health care reform legislation to be submitted to Congress within one hundred days of our taking office.” He also announces that his wife, Hillary Rodham Clinton, will head the task force and that Ira Magaziner will be named its day-to-day operating head. A blanket of secrecy is imposed on task force operations. Magaziner objects but is overruled by George Stephanopoulos and others on the White House communications team. > > The appointment of the First Lady sends a clear signal to all in the administration and players in both parties on Capitol Hill that Clinton places great importance on Health Care. It also serves instantly to limit how far cabinet secretaries and White House aides can go in pressing their views. One person watching from close range will later tell Johnson and Broder: “They went about this exactly in the right way, with one exception. The person who’s in charge shouldn’t sleep with the President, because if you sleep with the President, nobody is going to tell you the truth.” Key economic advisers who have grave reservations about the direction of Clinton’s reform plans from the very start are forced to ask themselves, “Do I want to take on the President’s wife?” ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-evil/132211/76 "2002-10-15T15:11:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*I really don’t see a rational distinction between Hillary and, say Vernon Jordan, Dick Morris, or any other unelected, unconfirmed advisor. \*\* Jordan, Morris, and other advisors weren’t _czars_. Hillary was presented as more than an advisor. She was calling the shots on health care reform. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-evil/132211/77 "2002-10-15T15:12:07Z")
Hillary wasn’t really trying to “channel” Eleanor roosevelt. (although I do get your point) It was just an exercise where you PRETEND to talk to a dead person to try to guess what they might say. She didn’t actually BELIEVE she was talking to ER (unlike NR and the astrologer). I do agree that the exercise was silly and new-agey and didn’t make her look good. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-evil/132211/78 "2002-10-15T15:32:37Z")
**Scylla** : I understand and agree with the objection on the secrecy of the task force’s work, though that had nothing to do with Hillary’s marital status. As for the point that other advisers wouldn’t want to contradict the First Lady, that’s (a) an inherent risk of marriage and (b) unsupported by actual White House practice during the Clinton years. My recollection is that Hillary’s left-leaning advice was routinely contradicted by moderate to conservative advisers (Dick Morris, anyone?) and frequently rejected by the president. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-evil/132211/79 "2002-10-15T15:44:27Z")
Hatred of Hillary - my best guess: 1. In addition to the nepotism issue, her problem was that the position of First Lady has traditionally been associated with warm-and-fuzzy do-gooder activities. Sharp-elbowed political infighting and policy battles coming from that office were thus more harshly received than they would have been coming from a more traditional “political” office. 2. I think the extent to which she is hated is over-rated. A lot of politicans are hated; Jesse Helms, Ted Kennedy et al. She has been relatively prominent for the last 10 years or so, and I don’t know if the amount of antipathy she has provoked is all that far out of the ordinary. Aside: It would seem to me that here record as senator has been unremarkable. She does not seem to be one of the leading Democrats on policy or political issues. And she strikes me as not having turned out to have been as liberal as had been thought. But I could be wrong on this - I haven’t been following it all that closely. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-evil/132211/80 "2002-10-15T15:52:06Z")
Quite right on all counts, **Izzy**. I’m no Hillary fan–generally too far to the left for my tastes, and I find her sense of entitlement to political power to be quite appalling–but that analysis seems spot-on to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-evil/132211.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hillary-clinton-evil/132211.md?page=5)