# Is Hoda Muthana a US citizen & should she be allowed back in the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 21, 2019, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942 "2019-02-21T03:18:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/21 "2019-02-21T15:21:39Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > I think I would need more information to have an opinion. It is agreed (I think) that children born to certain diplomats do not get birthright citizenship. And it is agreed (I think) that at some point prior to her birth, her father was present here as a qualifying diplomat. > > As I understand it that her family claims that the father was discharged (fired?) [roughly a month prior to her birth](https://twitter.com/rcallimachi/status/1098317754816438272) thus bringing into question his status as a diplomatic official. As I read the [USCIS guidance](https://www.uscis.gov/policymanual/HTML/PolicyManual-Volume7-PartO-Chapter3.html), the key question isn’t really whether he was a “diplomat” at the time of her birth, but whether he was listed on the State Department’s “Blue List” at the time of birth. cf. 8 CFR 101.3 (“Foreign diplomatic officer means a person listed in the State Department Diplomatic List, also known as the Blue List.”). So, I’d want to know if the father was still listed a month after his discharge (which seems possible, since the internet suggests that the Blue List is published every six months). And I’d want to know if there is a procedure for someone who is still on the list (which is the regulatory definition) but is no longer, in fact, a diplomat. (I suppose I’d also be curious about the status, if any, of a person who is in the country on a diplomatic visa, but has been discharged from office). In an effort to answer my own question, under the [Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations](http://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_1_1961.pdf), “[w]hen the functions of a person enjoying privileges and immunities have come to an end, such privileges and immunities shall normally cease at the moment when he leaves the country” or after a reasonable period of time but “shall subsist until that time” Article 39(2). Which suggests that immunity continues from discharge until departure. So, if the logic is that a child born in the United States is not entitled to citizenship is they have a parent that has diplomatic immunity, then I would also want to know if her father exited the country (and returned) after his discharge. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/22 "2019-02-21T15:27:29Z")
The family also claims that she had been issued a US passport at one time. That would be a very quick thing for the State Department to check. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/23 "2019-02-21T15:35:13Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’d be good with this. Let her back in so we can try her for treason. No, she should be allowed back and put on display, so to speak. “I joined ISIS at nineteen because I was young and stupid. I grew disenchanted with it because \ and came back. Don’t you fall into the same trap I did.” You’d think someone who plays 4-dimensional chess would consider that. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/24 "2019-02-21T15:41:15Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > No, she should be allowed back and put on display, so to speak. > > “I joined ISIS at nineteen because I was young and stupid. I grew disenchanted with it because \ and came back. Don’t you fall into the same trap I did.” > > You’d think someone who plays 4-dimensional chess would consider that. I agree with this, with the caveat of ‘if she didn’t commit any crimes’. She should definitely be brought in and questioned, but if she didn’t commit any actual crimes then yeah, she could be the poster child for why pulling up stakes and going to live in a tent as an ISIS bride is a bad idea. She could relate her experiences to those who might be thinking of doing similarly stupid things. I understand that a lot of these girls were attracted by basically trolls on internet message boards, saying how great it was and how happy they would be. This would be a good counter message, if the various women who have come back saying how bad it was hasn’t been enough. I don’t know enough about the case, but if she was given a US passport and her citizenship was already looked at (basically, she was born here and her dad wasn’t a diplomat at the time of her birth), then what Trump et al are doing seems both weak and stupid. If nothing else, let her back in so she can be interrogated and, if she committed crimes let her be tried and sentenced through our system, as any citizen should be. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/25 "2019-02-21T15:44:07Z")
> [@andros](#): > > What a fascinating test balloon for withdrawing citizenship from other individuals. [Naturalized citizens, perhaps.](https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/in-america-naturalized-citizens-no-longer-have-an-assumption-of-permanence) Do you think it’s wrong _in principle_ that anyone’s naturalized citizenship should ever be revoked? If there are certain things that would have barred you from naturalization, and you are later found out to have lied about something substantial during the naturalization process, it doesn’t seem wrong to me that the potential exists to have naturalization revoked. Of course, that begs the question of what would be serious enough to justify revocation, and it sounds highly dubious whether this is really applicable in _this_ case. There should still be adequate due process - I’m not advocating that the government should be able to revoke on a whim for ulterior motives. But if someone were found to have lied about a serious criminal history? In any event, it certainly seems wrong that a naturalized citizen could have citizenship revoked because of actions they took _after_ naturalization. They should have the same right to due process as all citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/26 "2019-02-21T15:46:16Z")
I dunno. The state departments pretty clear that one can lose ones US citizenship by either swearing allegiance to another nation or taking up arms for another nation without seeking permission first. If she did either of those things with the caliphate then there’s a legal case to be made against her. I agree that we don’t have enough data to really make a ruling here. I’m sympathetic to her, sure. But she is an adult. And on some things you don’t get take backs. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/27 "2019-02-21T15:48:46Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > I dunno. The state departments pretty clear that one can lose ones US citizenship by either swearing allegiance to another nation or taking up arms for another nation without seeking permission first. > > If she did either of those things with the caliphate then there’s a legal case to be made against her. > > I agree that we don’t have enough data to really make a ruling here. I’m sympathetic to her, sure. But she is an adult. And on some things you don’t get take backs. Are women allowed to swear oaths of allegiance to ISIS? I have no idea but seems like it wouldn’t be a thing for them. And you are right…if she did those things then that’s definitely an issue. That doesn’t seem to be what Trump et al are using to stop her though, unless I’m misunderstanding what they are asserting. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/28 "2019-02-21T15:49:17Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > No, she should be allowed back and put on display, so to speak. > > “I joined ISIS at nineteen because I was young and stupid. I grew disenchanted with it because \ and came back. Don’t you fall into the same trap I did.” > > You’d think someone who plays 4-dimensional chess would consider that. I think a conviction for treason and an execution sends basically the same message, but more emphatically. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/29 "2019-02-21T15:50:10Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > I dunno. The state departments pretty clear that one can lose ones US citizenship by either swearing allegiance to another nation or taking up arms for another nation without seeking permission first. Can you offer a “pretty clear” cite for that? Because we’ve already had it asserted that it takes a deliberate act of renunciation of one’s citizenship to lose it. ETA: From the NOLO link provided by **asahi** : > [@](#): > > Committing any of the following acts will create a presumption that it was performed voluntarily with the idea of giving up U.S. citizenship, although the person may later be able to rebut (disprove) this presumption: > [ul]Becoming a naturalized citizen of another country after age 18.[/ul] > [ul]Formally declaring allegiance to a foreign government after age 18.[/ul] > [ul]Accepting a position in the government of another country after age 18, if one has citizenship in, or declared allegiance to, that country.[/ul] > [ul]Joining the military force of another country either (1) in any capacity if that country is engaged in hostilities against the U.S., or (2) as an officer.[/ul] > [ul]Formally renouncing U.S. nationality abroad before a U.S. diplomatic or consular officer.[/ul] > [ul]Formally renouncing U.S. nationality in the U.S. when the U.S. is at war, if done in writing and with the approval of the U.S. Department of Justice.[/ul] > [ul]Being convicted of treason or participating in any attempt to overthrow the U.S. government.[/ul] > > The act must be accompanied by a specific intent to relinquish U.S. nationality. > > For all the acts listed above, it is not enough to appear to commit the act–even voluntarily–to lose U.S. nationality; the person must also commit the act in order to relinquish the nationality. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/30 "2019-02-21T15:52:22Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > I dunno. The state departments pretty clear that one can lose ones US citizenship by either swearing allegiance to another nation or taking up arms for another nation without seeking permission first. > > If she did either of those things with the caliphate then there’s a legal case to be made against her. Is this applicable to all citizens, or specific to naturalized citizens? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/31 "2019-02-21T15:56:33Z")
> **[Advice about Possible Loss of U.S. Nationality and Dual Nationality](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality.html)** > > Advice about Possible Loss of U.S. Nationality and Dual Nationality It was linked upthread. Hell, I remember that being clearly stated on my first passport application as a kid. I was 11 or 12 and they still made it all clear. ---
**Author:** ![Folly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folly/32/3219_2.png) [@Folly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folly)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/32 "2019-02-21T16:05:13Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > [https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality.html](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality.html) > > It was linked upthread. Hell, I remember that being clearly stated on my first passport application as a kid. I was 11 or 12 and they still made it all clear. From the link: > [@](#): > > Administrative Presumption of Intent to Retain U.S. Citizenship > > As already noted, the actions listed above will result in the loss of U.S. nationality if performed voluntarily and with the intention of relinquishing U.S. nationality. The Department has adopted an administrative presumption that U.S. nationals intend to retain United States nationality when they: obtain naturalization in a foreign state (INA 349 (a)(1)); declare their allegiance to a foreign state (INA 349(a)(2)); serve as an officer in the armed forces of a foreign state not engaged in hostilities with the United States (INA 349(a)(3)); or accept non-policy level employment with a foreign government (INA 349(a)(4)). In accordance with the administrative presumption, when an individual commits one of the foregoing acts, that person will retain U.S. nationality unless he or she affirmatively, explicitly, and unequivocally asserts an intention to relinquish such nationality. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/33 "2019-02-21T16:40:19Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > I dunno. The state departments pretty clear that one can lose ones US citizenship by either swearing allegiance to another nation or taking up arms for another nation without seeking permission first. > > If she did either of those things with the caliphate then **there’s a legal case to be made against her**. > > I agree that we don’t have enough data to really make a ruling here. I’m sympathetic to her, sure. But she is an adult. And on some things you don’t get take backs. Emphasis mine. Yes, there’s a **legal** case. You may (or may not) be able to demonstrate that she has renounced her citizenship in a legal setting, through legal procedures, and then let the chips fall where they may. Or, you can treat her as a citizen and prosecute as such. The President and Secretary of State proclaiming that they’re simply blocking her re-entry doesn’t seem to satisfy any legal procedure. What a shock – this administration feels no obligation to act under the rule of law. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/34 "2019-02-21T16:50:52Z")
> [@catflea12](#): > > The US can revoke citizenship for treason, but it has to be proven first. I’d be more worried of a conviction than deportation. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/35 "2019-02-21T17:00:22Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > [https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality.html](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality.html) > > It was linked upthread. Hell, I remember that being clearly stated on my first passport application as a kid. I was 11 or 12 and they still made it all clear. I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I think the issue is that the president and DoS can’t just assert that someone is or isn’t a citizen - that gets litigated. A US citizen, particularly one who is born here, has the right to due process. I think that’s the rub - Trump and Pompeo are trying to deny her due process. To be frank, I’m not sure she’s going to like due process once Trump’s justice department is finished with her, but the real problem isn’t so much that they could make the legal claim that she’s no longer a citizen - they absolutely could. The problem I see, and I’m guessing others here see it as well, is the possibility that Trump may just say ‘screw the courts’. Moreover, this isn’t just punishing an individual; denying her citizenship seems to be inching ever closer to punishing a family, and it could even be perceived by Muslim Americans or Americans of Middle Eastern descent as community punishment as well, which is serious business, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/36 "2019-02-21T17:04:34Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > I was under the impression that joining the armed forces of another “country” cost you your American citizenship. Is this not accurate? Only if it’s a hostile nation. If you join the military of a friendly nation (and especially, if it’s by conscription as opposed to your own free will - i.e., Israel, Taiwan or Finland) - then you are OK. But none of that applies to this case. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/37 "2019-02-21T17:08:59Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > No, she should be allowed back and put on display, so to speak. > > “I joined ISIS at nineteen because I was young and stupid. I grew disenchanted with it because \ and came back. Don’t you fall into the same trap I did.” > > You’d think someone who plays 4-dimensional chess would consider that. That would be the smart move. I’m too lazy to Google at the moment, but from what I recall in reading and researching the topic several years ago, the body of research out there, including some conducted by our own military, seems to indicate that it’s observably more effective to rehabilitate and reintroduce alienated people back into society than it is to inflict misery. This instead seems to have Stephen Miller’s fingerprints all over it. This is an attempt to use an Arab American as a “foreign scum” poster child. What she did by leaving the country and experimenting with ISIS is scummy, but she was also young and she appears to be showing remorse. Moreover, we don’t really know what she actually did, and whether the worst of what she may have done was done on her own volition or whether she was coerced. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/38 "2019-02-21T18:07:26Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’d be good with this. Let her back in so we can try her for treason. I rarely agree with you given our different political views, but here I’m in complete agreement. Have her return, arrest her, and charge her with treason. From what I gather the evidence is pretty solid. Unless her argument is that she is not an American the case seems like it would be a slam dunk. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/39 "2019-02-21T18:20:53Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think a conviction for treason and an execution sends basically the same message, but more emphatically. No, that sends the message “if you screw up and realize you did, don’t ever set foot in the US again” combined with “Uncle Sam is scared of stupid little teenagers”. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/40 "2019-02-21T18:21:29Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > I rarely agree with you given our different political views, but here I’m in complete agreement. Have her return, arrest her, and charge her with treason. From what I gather the evidence is pretty solid. Unless her argument is that she is not an American the case seems like it would be a slam dunk. …and then execute her? _Pour encourager les autres_? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942.md?page=3)