# Is Hoda Muthana a US citizen & should she be allowed back in the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 21, 2019, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942 "2019-02-21T03:18:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/41 "2019-02-21T18:30:21Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > To be frank, I’m not sure she’s going to like due process once Trump’s justice department is finished with her, but the real problem isn’t so much that they could make the legal claim that she’s no longer a citizen - they absolutely could. The problem I see, and I’m guessing others here see it as well, is the possibility that Trump may just say ‘screw the courts’. Moreover, this isn’t just punishing an individual; denying her citizenship seems to be inching ever closer to punishing a family, and it could even be perceived by Muslim Americans or Americans of Middle Eastern descent as community punishment as well, which is serious business, IMO. ``` My understanding is that there is no claim that she's no longer a citizen - the claim is that she was never a citizen. She was apparently born a month after her father was discharged from his diplomatic post - but I haven't seen anywhere that describes the basis for her parents still being in the US after she was born. If they stayed on non-diplomatic visas or got green cards, she's a citizen. If they stayed here illegally, she's a citizen. But I read somewhere earlier today ( can't find it) that a diplomat who leaves/is removed from his post will retain immunity for some short period of time in order to make necessary arrangements (to move , obtain a visa) - that seems plausible and in that case she would *not* be a citizen. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/42 "2019-02-21T18:31:36Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > I rarely agree with you given our different political views, but here I’m in complete agreement. Have her return, arrest her, and charge her with treason. From what I gather the evidence is pretty solid. Unless her argument is that she is not an American the case seems like it would be a slam dunk. Is joining ISIS alone an act of treason against the U.S.? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/43 "2019-02-21T18:38:01Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Is joining ISIS alone an act of treason against the U.S.? > [@US Constitution](#): > > Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. ISIS is an enemy of the US, and joining them is both levying war against the US and aiding ISIS in doing so. Of course, she’s young and naive, and probably didn’t understand fully what she was doing, and it is her first offense. So, hang her. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/44 "2019-02-21T18:41:20Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > My understanding is that there is no claim that she’s no longer a citizen - the claim is that she was never a citizen. She was apparently born a month after her father was discharged from his diplomatic post - but I haven’t seen anywhere that describes the basis for her parents still being in the US after she was born. If they stayed on non-diplomatic visas or got green cards, she’s a citizen. If they stayed here illegally, she’s a citizen. But I read somewhere earlier today ( can’t find it) that a diplomat who leaves/is removed from his post will retain immunity for some short period of time in order to make necessary arrangements (to move , obtain a visa) - that seems plausible and in that case she would _not_ be a citizen. It is unclear whether the Administration is arguing that she no longer a citizen or that she never was a citizen. But, as I noted above, under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, a diplomat (or spouse/family member) retains immunity after the completion of the diplomatic assignment until he leaves the country or for a “reasonable time.” Assuming Muthana was born roughly at term, and was born about a month after the completion of the diplomatic tour, then it seems entirely plausible that her mother would have been seen as too far along to travel and been allowed to remain in the United States for the duration of the pregnancy, while retaining her diplomatic status and privileges. And, by extension, making her child not a United States citizen at birth. The more I think about this, the more I think that Muthana is not a US citizen and never was. But again, we don’t know what arguing the Administration is making (which, frankly, makes some of the more strident rejections seem a bit premature). ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/45 "2019-02-21T18:52:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > ISIS is an enemy of the US, and joining them is both levying war against the US and aiding ISIS in doing so. > > Of course, she’s young and naive, and probably didn’t understand fully what she was doing, and it is her first offense. So, hang her. > > Regards, > Shodan Is ISIS an enemy of the U.S.? I’m not saying they’re not, but what’s the basis for saying they are? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/46 "2019-02-21T18:59:31Z")
People who try to kill you are generally seen as enemies. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/47 "2019-02-21T19:00:39Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > My understanding is that there is no claim that she’s no longer a citizen - the claim is that she was never a citizen. She was apparently born a month after her father was discharged from his diplomatic post - but I haven’t seen anywhere that describes the basis for her parents still being in the US after she was born. If they stayed on non-diplomatic visas or got green cards, she’s a citizen. If they stayed here illegally, she’s a citizen. But I read somewhere earlier today ( can’t find it) that a diplomat who leaves/is removed from his post will retain immunity for some short period of time in order to make necessary arrangements (to move , obtain a visa) - that seems plausible and in that case she would _not_ be a citizen. That’s different from what I’ve read, but I’ve only read 1 or 2 articles so far - that would be an interesting twist. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/48 "2019-02-21T19:06:41Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Is joining ISIS alone an act of treason against the U.S.? I don’t see how it’s any different than if an American had joined the Vietcong during the Vietnam war, or the Iraqi military during either war with Iraq, or joined the Taliban, etc. No, those weren’t formally declared wars, but I think it’s a losing argument to claim that ISIS is not an enemy of the US. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/49 "2019-02-21T19:10:23Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Is ISIS an enemy of the U.S.? I’m not saying they’re not, but what’s the basis for saying they are? My understanding (from earlier treason threads) is that “enemy” means people we’re engaged in military hostilities with. That would seem to include ISIS. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/50 "2019-02-21T19:16:26Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > My understanding (from earlier treason threads) is that “enemy” means people we’re engaged in military hostilities with. That would seem to include ISIS. It’s interesting to note that the U.S. has not formally declared war on another country since WWII, but we have, indeed, been engaged in military hostilities with a number of countries and groups since then (including a continuous state of this, in various parts of the Middle East, since late 2001). ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/51 "2019-02-21T20:01:34Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > My understanding (from earlier treason threads) is that “enemy” means people we’re engaged in military hostilities with. That would seem to include ISIS. It would also include Russia, I guess, since they claimed that their interference in our election was an act of war. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/52 "2019-02-21T20:25:25Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > It would also include Russia, I guess, since they claimed that their interference in our election was an act of war. I don’t think so. We’re not “engaged in military hostilities with” Russia (unless I missed the start of WW3). But you’ve piqued my curiosity: what’s your cite for “they claimed that their interference in our election was an act of war”? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/53 "2019-02-21T20:29:07Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t think so. We’re not “engaged in military hostilities with” Russia (unless I missed the start of WW3). But you’ve piqued my curiosity: what’s your cite for “they claimed that their interference in our election was an act of war”? Yeah, I’m curious as to a cite on that, as well. While I occasionally hear an overheated commentator or analyst refer to Russia as “an enemy,” I cringe a bit when I hear that (though I do take very seriously Russia’s continued interference with U.S. elections). More often, I hear the term “adversary” or “rival” used, and I think those are probably technically more accurate. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/54 "2019-02-21T20:39:27Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [AP story here](https://apnews.com/877553b423cc4a61abeb9a0162d17371). > > …? That article does not say where she was born. without that info, no decision can be made by me. Also , did she give up her uS Citizenship? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/55 "2019-02-21T20:53:55Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t think so. We’re not “engaged in military hostilities with” Russia (unless I missed the start of WW3). But you’ve piqued my curiosity: what’s your cite for “they claimed that their interference in our election was an act of war”? I can’t find it! Damn. I was really sure that Russia claimed it was an act of war in order to avoid certain economic sanctions that would be triggered, but there was some sort of war exemption (or something like that). Anyway, before I tuck my tail between my legs, Nikki Haley called it an act of war: > **[Nikki Haley Tells Russia to Stay Out of U.S. Elections](https://www.newsweek.com/russia-committed-act-war-election-interference-nikki-haley-says-688518)** > > The U.S. ambassador to the United Nations firmly told Russia, "Don't interfere in our elections." (That’s me moving the goalposts, but if I can find a cite for my original claim, I’ll be back) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/56 "2019-02-21T20:56:54Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That article does not say where she was born. Reportedly, Hackensack, NJ. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/57 "2019-02-21T21:12:50Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I can’t find it! Damn. I was really sure that Russia claimed it was an act of war in order to avoid certain economic sanctions that would be triggered, but there was some sort of war exemption (or something like that). > > Anyway, before I tuck my tail between my legs, Nikki Haley called it an act of war: > > [Russia Committed Act of War With Election Interference, Nikki Haley Says](https://www.newsweek.com/russia-committed-act-war-election-interference-nikki-haley-says-688518) > > (That’s me moving the goalposts, but if I can find a cite for my original claim, I’ll be back) I appreciate the good humor contained in this post. Thank you. Now, regarding your new goal posts. Just because some act may be an “act of war” doesn’t mean we’re actually “at war” / “engaged in military hostilities with” the actor. For a couple of recent-ish examples, we bombed the Chinese embassy and they rammed our Navy’s EP-3. Both could be considered an “act of war”, but we’re not at war with China or “engaged in military hostilities with” them either. They’re more like a geopolitical foe, more or less comparable to our situation with Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/58 "2019-02-21T21:20:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That article does not say where she was born. without that info, no decision can be made by me. Also , did she give up her uS Citizenship? [A follow-up article has more information](https://apnews.com/f1e0816ed7a34d489818e487a4904430): > [@](#): > > Shibly said that the administration argues that she didn’t qualify for citizenship because her father was a Yemeni diplomat. But the lawyer said her father had not had diplomatic status at the time of her birth in Hackensack, New Jersey. > > He released a copy of the woman’s birth certificate, issued two months after her birth on Oct. 28, 1994, to support his claim. > > The lawyer also provided to The Associated Press a letter from the U.S. Mission to the United Nations to what was then known as the Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services attesting to the fact that the woman’s father, Ahmed Ali Muthana, was a member of the Yemeni diplomatic mission to the U.N. from Oct. 15, 1990 to Sept. 1, 1994. > [@](#): > > Most people born in the United States are accorded so-called birthright citizenship, but there are exceptions. Under the Immigration and Nationality Act, a person born in the U.S. to an accredited foreign diplomatic officer is not subject to U.S. law and is not automatically considered a U.S. citizen at birth. > > However, Muthana’s case is unusual, if not unprecedented in that she once held a U.S. passport. Passports are only issued to citizens by birth or naturalization, according to Seamus Hughes, the deputy director of the Program on Extremism at George Washington University, who has studied the phenomenon of foreign Islamic State fighters and families. [Yes, I know this is the Post; still](https://nypost.com/2019/02/20/isis-brides-nj-birth-certificate-doesnt-prove-us-citizenship-experts/): > [@](#): > > But her family’s lawyer insists she is an American — and that he has proof. > > The State Department did not explain its basis for declaring that Muthana isn’t a citizen, but attorney Hassan Shibly says the feds claim her father was a diplomat at the time of her birth — and the babies of diplomats don’t get citizenship like other tots born in the US do. > > Shibly, however, claims her dad had ceased working as a diplomat months before she was born in Hackensack, New Jersey on Oct. 28, 1994 — sharing as evidence a photo of her birth certificate, and one of a letter from the United States Mission to the U.N. dated Oct. 14, 2004, stating that her dad, Ahemed Ali Muthana, was a diplomat for Yemen from Oct. 15, 1990, to Sept. 1, 1994. > > Another lawyer representing Muthana’s family told the New York Times her dad provided a letter to officials when her first American passport was issued as a child, showing that he had been discharged as a diplomat. > > Muthana then successfully renewed her passport before running off to join ISIS in late 2014, Charlie Swift, the director of the Constitutional Law Center for Muslims in America, told the paper. ---
**Author:** ![Folly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folly/32/3219_2.png) [@Folly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folly)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/59 "2019-02-21T21:32:35Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I can’t find it! Damn. I was really sure that Russia claimed it was an act of war in order to avoid certain economic sanctions that would be triggered, but there was some sort of war exemption (or something like that). > > Anyway, before I tuck my tail between my legs, Nikki Haley called it an act of war: > > [Russia Committed Act of War With Election Interference, Nikki Haley Says](https://www.newsweek.com/russia-committed-act-war-election-interference-nikki-haley-says-688518) > > (That’s me moving the goalposts, but if I can find a cite for my original claim, I’ll be back) I think you are thinking of a response in court by the Russian government to a DNC lawsuit against Russia, Wikileaks, and Trump campaign associates. They basically said that they didn’t do it, but if they did do it that any act of its military is an act of a sovereign nation and they would have sovereign immunity. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/60 "2019-02-21T21:38:55Z")
Yeah total no brainer IMO. Unless they have some evidence that contradicts the fact her father was no longer a diplomat when she was born, then getting this decision overturned _should_ be an open and shut case. Bazzilionth example of the trump administration trying to do something blatantly unconstitutional. And everyone _hoping_ the system works and they don’t get away with it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942.md?page=4)