# Is Hoda Muthana a US citizen & should she be allowed back in the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 21, 2019, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942 "2019-02-21T03:18:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/61 "2019-02-21T21:50:00Z")
Ok, so you have some birth issues. Maybe yes, maybe no. You have a passport- good, but State sez issued in error. Then you have serving for a Enemy of the USA- which she did and admits. I think that last makes it difficult for any sympathy. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/62 "2019-02-21T21:55:03Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I appreciate the good humor contained in this post. Thank you. > > Now, regarding your new goal posts. Just because some act may be an “act of war” doesn’t mean we’re actually “at war” / “engaged in military hostilities with” the actor. For a couple of recent-ish examples, we bombed the Chinese embassy and they rammed our Navy’s EP-3. Both could be considered an “act of war”, but we’re not at war with China or “engaged in military hostilities with” them either. They’re more like a geopolitical foe, more or less comparable to our situation with Russia. I agree with you, especially if it’s us calling it such. If the other party claimed it to be an act of war, maybe that’s stronger, but (see below) that’s not the case. Anyway, I concede the point and would like to drop this hijack. > [@Folly](#): > > I think you are thinking of a response in court by the Russian government to a DNC lawsuit against Russia, Wikileaks, and Trump campaign associates. They basically said that they didn’t do it, but if they did do it that any act of its military is an act of a sovereign nation and they would have sovereign immunity. That’s probably it. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/63 "2019-02-21T21:59:35Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’d be good with this. Let her back in so we can try her for treason. Aid and comfort to the enemy in time of war might be a better approach. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/64 "2019-02-21T22:01:43Z")
Well, yeah. But that’s all she really has to go on, isn’t it? That and gender issues. Can you imagine this discussion if it were a guy who went to fight for ISIS? They media wouldn’t be all over him. Who was that idiot branded American Taliban? John something or other? Ah. John Walker Lindh. Indicted for a bundle of things including conspiracy and contributing services to Al Queda and the Taliban. Pled down and got 20 years. That might be a parallel case. Hey, he’s eligible for release in May! Anyway, that might be some sort of parallel. Anyway, she’s learning a hard lesson that she’s responsible for her actions. And some governments are more hard nosed than others. ---
**Author:** ![Folly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folly/32/3219_2.png) [@Folly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folly)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/65 "2019-02-21T22:07:16Z")
Is the toddler responsible for her actions as well? ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/66 "2019-02-21T22:14:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Ok, so you have some birth issues. Maybe yes, maybe no. > > You have a passport- good, but State sez issued in error. > > Then you have serving for a Enemy of the USA- which she did and admits. > I think that last makes it difficult for any sympathy. Is anyone here saying she deserves sympathy? She deserves due process – first, to determine her citizenship status, and then (if she is a citizen) to answer the charges against her. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/67 "2019-02-21T22:17:42Z")
> [@Folly](#): > > Is the toddler responsible for her actions as well? No, although it sounds like the mother’s claim to American citizenship is a bit shakier than I first thought, so the toddler may not be an American citizen either. Anyways, my preferred approach (letting her back in and trying her for her crimes) would probably result in the child being separated from her mother, and we know how sensitive everyone is to that, so maybe it’s not the best approach. Letting the family stay together in (where are they again? Kurdistan? Iran?) might be better … ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/68 "2019-02-21T22:25:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I think that last makes it difficult for any sympathy. Oh yes I forgot that passage in the US constitution where it says it only applies to sympathetic individuals who hug puppies and help old ladies across the street. ---
**Author:** ![Folly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folly/32/3219_2.png) [@Folly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folly)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/69 "2019-02-21T22:27:19Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No, although it sounds like the mother’s claim to American citizenship is a bit shakier than I first thought, so the toddler may not be an American citizen either. Anyways, my preferred approach (letting her back in and trying her for her crimes) would probably result in the child being separated from her mother, and we know how sensitive everyone is to that, so maybe it’s not the best approach. Letting the family stay together in (where are they again? Kurdistan? Iran?) might be better … A Kurdish-run refugee camp in northern Syria. But rest assured I will take your apparent knowledge of the situation and apparent concern for the child into all due consideration. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/70 "2019-02-21T22:31:34Z")
> [@Folly](#): > > Is the toddler responsible for her actions as well? No, of course not. However, that doesn’t make the US responsible, either. There are many cases where the parent makes decisions for a child and the child has to live or die by it. I don’t know a way around that for her any more than I know a way around anti-vaxxers, bad parents who teach white supremacy or people who do other questionable things for/to their kids. So, yes, the kid may suffer consequences because of the sins of her mother. But that’s life. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/71 "2019-02-21T22:33:32Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Oh yes I forgot that passage in the US constitution where it says it only applies to sympathetic individuals who hug puppies and help old ladies across the street. Are you kidding? Have you lived in the United States? For God’s sake, we have a reality television star as a President and a key part of evaluating our leaders is how well they present on television. Too assume that the United States polity isn’t strongly driven by sympathetic narrative is to deny the truth. We’re hearing about this girl. Fine. But there are others who AREN’T are sympathetic or media-savvy that haven’t found themselves on the news and therefore getting attention. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/72 "2019-02-21T22:50:55Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Oh yes I forgot that passage in the US constitution where it says it only applies to sympathetic individuals who hug puppies and help old ladies across the street. There are laws that state you give up your citizenship if you fight for a foreign enemy. \*Formally declaring allegiance to a foreign government after age 18. … Joining the military force of another country either (1) in any capacity if that country is engaged in hostilities against the U.S., or (2) as an officer. \* She admits to having done so. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/73 "2019-02-21T23:02:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There are laws that state you give up your citizenship if you fight for a foreign enemy. > > \*Formally declaring allegiance to a foreign government after age 18. > … > Joining the military force of another country either (1) in any capacity if that country is engaged in hostilities against the U.S., or (2) as an officer. > \* > > She admits to having done so. Actually the law says “with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality”. Also the US has been doing everything in its power to show the ISIS caliphate is NOT a country or nation state of any kind, so claiming it is now isn’t going to fly. But that’s irrelevant to my point. She has rights under the constitution, including due process (which removal of citizenship by presidential tweet is definitely not), whether she has our sympathy or not is irrelevant to that. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/74 "2019-02-21T23:10:32Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Actually the law says “with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality”. Also the US has been doing everything in its power to show the ISIS caliphate is NOT a country or nation state of any kind, so claiming it is now isn’t going to fly. > > But that’s irrelevant to my point. She has rights under the constitution, including due process (which removal of citizenship by presidential tweet is definitely not), whether she has our sympathy or not is irrelevant to that. Equating “due process” with “sympathy” has been a staple of the GOP playbook for generations. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/75 "2019-02-21T23:16:33Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > … > > But that’s irrelevant to my point. She has rights under the constitution, including due process (which removal of citizenship by presidential tweet is definitely not), whether she has our sympathy or not is irrelevant to that. The due process was her voluntarily joining a enemy of the USA. \*She \*made that decision. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/76 "2019-02-21T23:21:12Z")
On a related note, should al-Awlaki have been given due process? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/77 "2019-02-21T23:33:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The due process was her voluntarily joining a enemy of the USA. \*She \*made that decision. WTF? So, how does the Constitution work as toilet paper? Your point could be extended to: The due process was stealing from the store. The due process was shooting someone. The due process was the cop shooting someone. Bring her in, and try her, if not for treason then for the many laws about giving support to terrorists. I think she conveniently has changed her mind after ISIS got crushed. So I have zero sympathy for her. But the rule of law doesn’t depend on that. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/78 "2019-02-21T23:36:54Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > On a related note, should al-Awlaki have been given due process? Irrelevant. If a drone strike on her camp wiped her out, I wouldn’t be crying either. Someone actively fighting you is different from a prisoner. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/79 "2019-02-21T23:42:34Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Irrelevant. If a drone strike on her camp wiped her out, I wouldn’t be crying either. Someone actively fighting you is different from a prisoner. If she was _just_ a prisoner, like one of the various people that have been rescued from Al Qaeda / Taliban / ISIS, this thread wouldn’t exist. The best case scenario for her I see is that she’s in some gray area between “actively fighting” and “prisoner” ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/80 "2019-02-21T23:43:16Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Irrelevant. If a drone strike on her camp wiped her out, I wouldn’t be crying either. Someone actively fighting you is different from a prisoner. Cite that Hoda Muthana was doing any fighting? Because I hadn’t heard before this that it was even a possibility, but here you are asserting that she was “actively fighting”. :dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942.md?page=5)