# Is Hoda Muthana a US citizen & should she be allowed back in the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 21, 2019, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942 "2019-02-21T03:18:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/161 "2019-02-26T02:07:43Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Perhaps. But the government damn well better follow the letter of the law when stripping people of their rights. Short of delousing your child, there is no better time to nitpick. THat horse bolted when droning American citizens without due process became vogue but I agree with the theory. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/162 "2019-02-26T04:15:13Z")
> [@andros](#): > > The one that can come from a conviction for treason. There are at least two posters ITT who have called for her execution. I’m still wondering if that’s really what we’re putting on the table here. A question then is- if she faces the DP, or at least a long prison term, why does she want to come back to the USA? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/163 "2019-02-26T04:25:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > A question then is- if she faces the DP, or at least a long prison term, why does she want to come back to the USA? She thinks she is more imminently going to die where she is and/or she wants to give her kid a chance? She thinks she will eventually prevail in a U.S. court on the citizenship issue? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/164 "2019-02-26T04:36:41Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > She thinks she is more imminently going to die where she is and/or she wants to give her kid a chance? She thinks she will eventually prevail in a U.S. court on the citizenship issue? Ok, but being a citizen doesn’t stop you from being executed as a traitor. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/165 "2019-02-26T04:43:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Ok, but being a citizen doesn’t stop you from being executed as a traitor. No, but presumably if someone in the U.S. wants to execute you as a traitor, there will be a trial first, and if you lose, there will be several layers of appeals. I doubt the same is the case in her current circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/166 "2019-02-26T23:54:07Z")
[This Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/02/hoda-muthana-isis-american-citizenship/583645/)article sums up the issue pretty well: > [@](#): > > The impact of Muthana’s case rests on how the government responds to the latest lawsuit: If the White House bases its argument on Ahmed Ali Muthana’s diplomatic status, then the dispute’s impact will be limited. But if the case becomes a referendum on whether a citizen can be denied reentry into the United States, then it can have major repercussions If it is just the small print of when her dad stopped being a diplomat, then it has no wider implications, and its nothing to do with the constitution or Trump. But there is no guarantee that is in fact the case (and personally I am not going the give the Trump admin the benefit of the doubt on this). If its the Trump admin saying “she’s not a citizen because I say so” that is pretty horrifically unconstitutional (and exactly the kind of the thing Trump would do). ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/167 "2019-02-27T07:15:20Z")
She’s not a citizen because the Obama administration said so. And they seem to have made that determination based upon her father’s diplomatic status. ---
**Author:** ![fedman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@fedman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2019, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/168 "2019-02-28T00:20:26Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I agree with this, with the caveat of ‘if she didn’t commit any crimes’. She should definitely be brought in and questioned, but if she didn’t commit any actual crimes then yeah, she could be the poster child for why pulling up stakes and going to live in a tent as an ISIS bride is a bad idea. She could relate her experiences to those who might be thinking of doing similarly stupid things. I understand that a lot of these girls were attracted by basically trolls on internet message boards, saying how great it was and how happy they would be. This would be a good counter message, if the various women who have come back saying how bad it was hasn’t been enough. > > I don’t know enough about the case, but if she was given a US passport and her citizenship was already looked at (basically, she was born here and her dad wasn’t a diplomat at the time of her birth), then what Trump et al are doing seems both weak and stupid. If nothing else, let her back in so she can be interrogated and, if she committed crimes let her be tried and sentenced through our system, as any citizen should be. she stated she wanted to fight us and possibly become a suicide bomber, now she’s crying about how unfair that US won’t let her back in country so she can recruit other girls to isis–do you really believe her story or trust her ---
**Author:** ![fedman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@fedman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2019, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/169 "2019-02-28T00:24:34Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > No, that sends the message “if you screw up and realize you did, don’t ever set foot in the US again” combined with “Uncle Sam is scared of stupid little teenagers”. and how many “stupid little teenagers” become suicide bombers in Iraq, Afghanistan, and even Europe and US? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2019, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/170 "2019-02-28T00:34:13Z")
> [@fedman](#): > > she stated she wanted to fight us and possibly become a suicide bomber, now she’s crying about how unfair that US won’t let her back in country so she can recruit other girls to isis–do you really believe her story or trust her Is the belief that granting her citizenship makes her immune to prosecution for any crimes she’s found to have committed? Because I’d think that the _first step_ to locking her up and throwing away the key would be to admit that she’s a citizen and subject to our authority. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2019, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/171 "2019-02-28T14:27:11Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’d think that the _first step_ to locking her up and throwing away the key would be to admit that she’s a citizen and subject to our authority. Citizenship entails rights, pesky little things that keep us from exacting all the vengeance we’d like to. \*Lack \*of citizenship allows her to be sent straight to Gitmo to rot. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/172 "2019-03-04T17:16:30Z")
In case anyone is still following this, the government’s response to the father’s lawsuit is available [here](http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2019/images/03/04/dojhoda.pdf) (in pdf). As anticipated, it defends the Obama Administration’s determination that her father still enjoyed diplomatic immunity at the time of her birth and, therefore, she has never been a US citizen. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/173 "2019-03-05T10:35:31Z")
The Onion denounces sexist media: > **[Sexist Media Keeps Only Referring To Woman As ‘Bride Of ISIS Soldier’](https://www.theonion.com/sexist-media-keeps-only-referring-to-woman-as-bride-of-1833041408)** > > NEW YORK—Decrying the label as “shamelessly sexist,” media watchdog Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting issued a statement Monday condemning the American press for only referring to Alabama-born jihadist Hoda Muthana as “bride of ISIS soldier.” “Ms.... ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/174 "2019-03-05T13:55:00Z")
The federal judge in Muthana’s case has denied the sought expedited handling of this case. Theccasecstill continues under normal rules of civil procedure which give the government up to, and including, April 26, 2019 to more fully respond to the suit. The government’s response in opposition to expedited handling (linked above by Falchion) lays out its approach on the key issue of diplomatic immunity and its impact on children born in the United States. In short, the government argues that the dates it receives official notice that a person has been added or removed to the diplomatic roles are the only dates that matter. In this case it was February 6, 1995 that notice was received that the father was no longer a diplomat - well after the 1994 birth of his daughter. As such his daughter was not “subject to the jurisdiction of” the United States which is a requirement for birthright citizenship under the Fourteenth Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/175 "2019-03-05T19:30:15Z")
What’s the Islamic State’s position? Do they consider her a POW or AWOL? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2019, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/176 "2019-03-06T22:15:22Z")
ISTM that this also highlights how because the cases of non-subject births are few and far between, the default, absent some sort of immediate official notification to the contrary, is to presume the birth is subject to the jurisdiction and citizenship applies, and any deeper digging only happens after-the-fact when/if some problem arises. ---
**Author:** ![fedman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@fedman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2019, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/177 "2019-03-07T22:50:42Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > No, that sends the message “if you screw up and realize you did, don’t ever set foot in the US again” combined with “Uncle Sam is scared of stupid little teenagers”. like the ISIS stupid teenage suicide bombers? ---
**Author:** ![Skypist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skypist/32/169_2.png) [@Skypist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skypist)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/178 "2022-01-13T14:44:01Z")
The Supreme Court refused to hear Muthana’s case without comment. So I guess that means she’s SOOL? Or can she file in a lower federal court still? > **[Hoda Muthana: Alabama IS bride loses appeal for return to US](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59974939)** > > US-born Hoda Muthana is a citizen and should be allowed to return with her son, the lawsuit argued. > Social media posts during her time with the extremist group show Ms Muthana applauding terrorist attacks and encouraging other Americans to join IS. So it seems she was actually an influencer on social media, so there should be some evidence against her if she ever did make it back to the US and stood trial. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/179 "2022-01-13T14:51:02Z")
> [@Skypist](#): > > The Supreme Court refused to hear Muthana’s case without comment. So I guess that means she’s SOOL? Or can she file in a lower federal court still? The SCOTUS is the court of last resort. ---
**Author:** ![Skypist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skypist/32/169_2.png) [@Skypist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skypist)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942/180 "2022-01-13T15:01:50Z")
Yes, but they didn’t comment or make a ruling, just refused to hear the case. So I’m not sure if that means she could still appeal in a lower court or if that means her options are pretty much nothing. It’s hard for me to work up much sympathy for her, and I don’t really want her back, I’m just still unclear on the evidence of Muthana’s father’s diplomat status at the time of her birth. Her case seems to hinge on that. Now it’s three different administrations’ State Departments that have said she’s not a citizen, so that’s interesting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-hoda-muthana-a-us-citizen-should-she-be-allowed-back-in-the-us/829942.md?page=10)