Don’t be suprised if someone self-righteously accuses you of broccoliphobia. 
First of all, I didn’t say anything about calling the person a homophobe or racist or whatever, since I know that’s what freaks people out and immediately puts them on the defensive. (“I’M NICE AND I’M GOOD AND YOU JUST CALLED ME A RACIST AND RACISTS ARE BAD SO I’M GOING TO TOTALLY SHUT DOWN AND DEFEND MYSELF AND FORGET ABOUT THE STUPID RACIST THING I JUST SAID!”). I do think that someone can stop and think, “hey, I’m grossed out by two dudes kissing. There’s nothing wrong with two dudes kissing - can I examine my thought process and figure out why I’m having this homophobic thought, and work on that?” because yeah, the thought is homophobic.
Yeah um, of course it’s better. And for the record, you’ll never catch me calling for a “color blind society” because IMO people talking about that are generally white people who are sick of hearing about racism. But you (general you) and I can’t just pat ourselves on the back about being such great allies and people cause we totally think gays should be able to get married and blacks should be able to vote and all that. The “fight” as you call it never stops. That’s why it’s important to acknowledge our mistakes and why “hey I voted for pro-gay legislation, I’m totes in the good column now” can’t be the end of the conversation.
Yeah, no offense but this is why all these food metaphors are moronic and pointless in this discussion.
But I’m hungry!
WTF? Since when can’t I be grossed out by whatever is grossing me out? I’ve every right to find vaginas or whatever other body part horrifically repulsive without being sanctimoniously judged.
Somehow I’m supposed to love dicks, and cunts, and presumably also watching 80 yo orgiac tatooed coprophiles or else I’m an antisocial something-phobic?
Not to speak on behalf of anyone with a vagina, but you can.
Huh? No you don’t. Why do you feel entitled not to be judged?
You can be grossed out by vaginas, and other people can draw conclusions about what kind of person you are as a result.
Disagree. I think they are key, as they address one form of dislike.
Obviously, there are others, but the metaphors don’t address them (and aren’t intended to.)
Hitler’s dislike of gays went a damn sight farther than mere personal dislike. The food metaphor fails for Hitler. But, then, nobody here (I think!) would argue that Hitler wasn’t evil.
I also love broccoli!
I see no problem with being grossed out by vaginas, or PDA or whatever. (I don’t care to view either) But as mentioned above, it’s one thing to not care for them yourself and entirely another to try and stop others from enjoying them, marrying them or what have you.
Though I do find it amusing if a guy is grossed out by dicks or a woman by vaginas. I mean, you have one so I would think you would enjoy them.
As to the poll, I said yes and maybe. Yes to the first half of the question and maybe to the second.
Well, let’s put it this way: if I were to kiss a boy in public in the sort of way straight couples routinely do (i.e. not making out, obviously no hands roaming about; I’m pretty discreet) then if someone else says anything to me to indicate disapproval, I’m perfectly willing to put them in the homophobe category.
If someone’s going to try to make me feel uncomfortable for engaging in the same ordinary affectionate behavior that pretty much no one bats an eye at from straight couples, I’m not about to pretend that’s okay. Queer people shouldn’t be expected to politely hide all evidence of our having relationships and it’s absolutely unreasonable for straight folks to try to pressure us to do so.
As for anyone being actively grossed out by anyone’s parts, well, it’s just a naked body. I don’t see how you get to adulthood without having seen a fair few of both sexes, so it just seems sort of silly to be freaked out by the site of a penis or a vulva.
I agree, there’s no need for them to say something. I just personally don’t care for PDA regardless of the genders involved.
Again, I don’t disagree. No one said they have to like it, but it would be rude to say something to you.
The only naked women I’ve seen have been in porn and then only very rarely. I don’t get freaked out, I just don’t care for them and have no desire to view one again.
Really? I mean, I don’t think I’ve led a particularly bohemian life but I’ve run across women changing clothes, seen women at nude beaches, and of course seen the occasional bit of full frontal in regular, non-porn movies. Fewer times than I’ve seen nude dudes, of course, but it’s not like it’s never happened.
How is it misogynistic? It’s an aesthetic judgement, not a moral or ethical one. He’s not saying that women are dumber, or more emotional, or less reliable then men. He’s saying he doesn’t like vaginas. Gay men, as a rule, don’t tend to find female genitalia to be attractive - and that’s all Savage is saying in that quote. Now, I’m reasonably certain that you’re not trying to equate “doesn’t like pussy” with “doesn’t like women as a whole,” but I’m not seeing an element in Savage’s quote that differentiates it from the more milder statement. What am I overlooking, here?
Why do you think that? Certainly, on a societal level, homophobia is a genuine problem, while heterophobia is pretty much a non-issue. But to the minute extent we’re parsing the issue in this thread, the comparison seems entirely relevant. There are plenty of gay people I know who react to heterosexual displays in more-or-less the same way that Trinopus reacts to homosexual displays. Why aren’t those two reactions comparable?
Well, it’s not, obviously, but it doesn’t seem to be much of a stretch to imagine that if Savage was grossed out by the sight of a vagina all by itself, he wouldn’t find the sight of someone fucking a vagina to be any more appealing. Granted, he’d probably like looking at lesbian sex even less, because of the multiplicity of cooters, but I think that rather underlines my point: these sorts of reactions aren’t easily mappable to our social customs and classifications. Dan Savage would, no doubt, be grossed out by lesbian sex. It’s highly unlikely that this is because Dan Savage is a homophobe. Therefore, is there not a similar possibility that a given straight person could be grossed out by gay sex, and not be homophobic?
Actually, he compared the vulva to canned ham dropped out of a window. That’s a lot different than “I don’t personally want to look at vulvas.” One of those statements is a fairly neutral fact about one’s preferences. The other one likens some people’s genitalia to canned ham dropped out of a window.
Our entire social context.
Because of our social context.
I’m aware that some gay people occasionally broadcast disgust at seeing straight people engage in normal affection. But I don’t think it happens much, because we get used to seeing our straight friends and family members as well as strangers on the street. And it’s still not comparable because queer people are, what, five percent of the population? We have no realistic ability to enforce our preferences in most circumstances. If a straight couple kisses in public and some gay person protests, they’ll reliably get shouted down. Whereas in many places a gay couple is risking harassment or worse if they do. I can’t imagine there are many gay people who are out who haven’t ever run into that.
Let’s put it this way: if some straight person really is grossed out by seeing a (normal, polite) kiss between two men or two women, I think they can keep their straight mouth shut about it if they don’t want to be considered a homophobe. It’s stressful to have to worry all the time about whether you look too gay and whether someone’s going to say or do something about it. So if this straight person is honestly not anti-gay then I’m sure they wouldn’t want to contribute to that stress.
Anyway, yeah, social context. But I’ll light a candle for the many many victims of “heterophobia”.
I don’t see any significant possibility of me learning about some straight person’s disgust for gay sex in a way that doesn’t involve them doing something that’s clearly homophobic.
This has perhaps been forgotten, but the example that sparked this line of discussion was a straight person who is grossed out by seeing a same-sex kiss “but doesn’t act on those emotions”. That means no making insulting remarks, no shooting the happy couple dirty looks, just a private, internal “Yuck!” reaction. No one in this thread has suggested that it’s at all okay to shout at people on the street or anything like that.
Yup. He also acknowledged that those feelings are probably rooted to some extent in homophobia, which is not surprising. We live in a society that inundates us with homophobic messages. It’s hard for gay people to not be at all homophobic, so how much harder is it for straight people?
I’m way more simpatico with someone who acknowledges that these feelings don’t occur in a vacuum, like Trinopus, than I am with anyone who self-righteously complains that it’s grossly unfair to suggest that these feelings are homophobic.
Another fairly subtle question: should I have said anything? By admitting to my feelings in a public discussion forum like this, am I not “committing an act” and therefore, by my own standards, guilty of moral evil?
My intent was to confess the truth in the spirit of a “truth and reconciliation” dialogue. But would I have been wiser simply to have held silence?
I attend Gay Pride Parade wearing a button that reads, “Straight, But Not Narrow.” It’s an ideal I try very hard to live up to. Have I failed in this by admitting to secret feelings that should have remained secret?
Well, I mean, not in my eyes. My thoughts don’t always live up to my ideals, I try to be honest with myself about that. Being grossed out by same-sex affection is oppressive when someone’s making disgusted or mocking comments because two people are holding hands in public, not when someone says something like what you said.
Is there someone in this thread you think has done this? Because it seems to me like you’ve been fighting a lot of straw men here.
Well, you did, for starters, and certainly that’s the point people were making with the stupid food analogies.
I mean, comparing disgust at seeing gay couples kiss to not liking broccoli is obviously ridiculous and only works if you’re trying to pretend that “doesn’t like when gay people kiss” is a neutral preference like “doesn’t like broccoli”.
No, I didn’t. You obviously haven’t been paying much attention to what other people are actually saying. It’s easy to fight straw men, but it’s accomplishes nothing.
You better figure out who used your account to post this, then: