# Is honor a lost value? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-honor-a-lost-value/331081 "2005-11-15T00:00:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-honor-a-lost-value/331081/41 "2005-11-15T17:25:23Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I don’t see how fighting in a war one doesn’t believe in is honorable But for centuries, that was a vital part of honor. The European code of chivalry and the Japanese code of Bushido both put central importance on doing what you were ordered. > [@](#): > > Honor is what you do because it is right. Not because you will win, or become famous, or be rewarded. Because it is right. I don’t see honor as connected to morality at all. Knights and samurai did some terrible things for the sake of honor. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-honor-a-lost-value/331081/42 "2005-11-15T17:27:10Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Because you are putting yourself at risk to fullfill an obligation that you made. That’s a tricky one. Does the unjust killing of innocents trump your contractual obligation or not? > [@](#): > > We don’t celebrate “honor” in an overblown poetic Shakespearean sense, but TV and movies constantly portray characters demonstrating honor through their actions. Fair enough. > [@](#): > > Curb Your Enthusiasm and Seinfield are not good examples because they are about characters that only care about themselves. They have no honor because they have no regard for even their friends. Fair enough. I suppose all facets are fairly represented on television, but I’m still dubious about politics, which while a manifestation social values, also has the added characteristic of tricky power games obscuring the politician’s intentions. > [@](#): > > By comparison, Mike from Arested Development is an honorable character because he only cares for protecting his family, even in spite of them. I never saw Arrested Development. I never even heard of it until yesterday when someone was bitching about it in the Pit regarding Tracy Lord. > [@](#): > > I’m not say that you are dishonorable, only that maybe the problem is that you don’t see it in others because you are looking for a romantacized version of it. That’s probably true. I tend to be a hopeless romantic. > [@](#): > > In reality, how often is our honor tested? Most of us just trudge to work, do our job and then go home. I think it’s tested in small little ways all the time. **Anaamika** I am not sure if there is a more stable definition. Perhaps that is why honor and law don’t go hand in hand. Law is a strict codification, a very precise definition. Honor is what maintains order when it’s less clear. Erek ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-honor-a-lost-value/331081/43 "2005-11-15T17:29:38Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > But for centuries, that was a vital part of honor. The European code of chivalry and the Japanese code of Bushido both put central importance on doing what you were ordered. > > I don’t see honor as connected to morality at all. Knights and samurai did some terrible things for the sake of honor. That’s probably the most succinct answer to my question I suppose. As to where Honor has gone in our society. Perhaps that sense of honor is anachronistic, and in the information age we need much more precise definitions for things. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-honor-a-lost-value/331081/44 "2005-11-15T17:36:40Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Such as the post in this thread making a gratuitous swipe at Bill Clinton. Seriously, can you make a sincere argument that substance-abusing, spoiled-frat-boy neglecting his obligations, business-failing, depending-on-his-father’s friends for bailouts George W. Bush is any more honourable than Bill Clinton. I believe mine was the only post that mentions Clinton, so I assume you’re referring to it. But I’m completely baffled. My post doesn’t remotely “swipe” at Clinton. One of the things it says is that Republicans who voted to acquit Mr. Clinton acted with honor. If mine is the post in question, can you expain why you read it as a swipe? ---
**Author:** ![Papermache\_Prince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@Papermache\_Prince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Papermache_Prince)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-honor-a-lost-value/331081/45 "2005-11-15T17:42:36Z")
Perhaps Post #24 qualifies? > [@shodan](#): > > Interesting that no one has defined honor as noblesse oblige, treating your subordinates with respect, telling the truth even to your own detriment, or faithfulness to your vows of honor. Nor mentioned that it might have declined during the period from January 20, 1993, thru January 20, 2001. > > Regards, > Shodan ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-honor-a-lost-value/331081/46 "2005-11-15T17:44:57Z")
I agree with those saying that the term ‘honor’ means different things to different people…and at different times in our history. Today I’m not even sure what the term means…it seems to have been suplanted by more specific terms (honesty, duty, principals, etc). The term always was a bit amorphous even when it was in wide use…and how it was used changed from culture to culture and through time. As for ‘Honor’ being dead its preposterous. Hell, she is still out there kicking ass and not even bothering to take names. Nimitz is still with her and she has a kid of her own! I predict that she will still be launching missiles and wacking bad guys with sword, gun or bare handed for many years to come! 😉 -XT ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-honor-a-lost-value/331081/47 "2005-11-15T17:46:48Z")
The Mahabharata is also filled with people doing things they don’t believe in, for the sake of honor. Udishtira has just lost everything (including his wife, and his own freedom) in a game of dice. His opponent cancels the debt. Udishtira begins to leave. His opponent challenges Udishtira to one last game. Udishtira knows the stakes will be even higher, and that he’ll lose again. But he accepts the challenge. His caste/honor demands that he accept all challenges. The Pandava and the Karava (two groups of royal cousins fighting for the crown) are readying for war. An uncle and a warrior teacher, both great examples of moral goodness (except for one incident involving a thumb) love Udishtira and his siblings and know that their cause is just. But, the uncle and the teacher fight on the other side for the cause of a leader they don’t like, and consider immoral. Their honor requires them to do so. **Bricker** I’m a bleeding heat, leftwing Democrat. I didn’t see your post as a swipe or an attempt to inject politics into the thread. **Dan Blather** Excellent point. Jefferson wrote the Declaration. Jefferson owned slaves. **Mswas** OTTOMH, I can’t think of a historical definition of honor that involved morality. For example, counting coup was all about honor but had nothing to do with morality ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-honor-a-lost-value/331081/48 "2005-11-15T17:57:34Z")
Sorry I couldn’t respond earlier. > [@acsenray](#): > > Honor is crap, because people who sit around bemoaning the loss of honor are most often pushing self-serving, self-righteous, hypocritical arguments. Such as the post in this thread making a gratuitous swipe at Bill Clinton. Seriously, can you make a sincere argument that substance-abusing, spoiled-frat-boy neglecting his obligations, business-failing, depending-on-his-father’s friends for bailouts George W. Bush is any more honourable than Bill Clinton. This caused my Irony-meter to short out. 😃 Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-honor-a-lost-value/331081/49 "2005-11-15T18:17:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I believe mine was the only post that mentions Clinton, so I assume you’re referring to it. No, not yours, Brick. **PPrince** got the one. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-honor-a-lost-value/331081/50 "2005-11-15T18:18:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Way back when I was a Boy Scout (yes, yes - I was a Boy Scout) I remember being given this definition of honor, which I have always liked: honor is behaving the same way regardless of whether anyone else is watching. I tried living by that code but the judge had a nastier name for it. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-honor-a-lost-value/331081/51 "2005-11-15T18:22:00Z")
Excellent post, **DocC**. I hope you don’t mind if I nitpick just a wee: Yudishtira Kaurava Indeed, Yudishtira’s “honour” is the defining trait of his character, and his honour leads him along a dangerous path. It’s interesting to contrast Yudishtira’s honour, over which he never hesitates, to Arjun’s dilemma over his _dharma_, when Krishna must persuade him that it is his duty to try to kill half the people he loves. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-honor-a-lost-value/331081/52 "2005-11-15T18:52:48Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > [I relayed the story some time ago](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=292331) of Sgt. Rafael Peralta, who saved the lives of several of his fellow Marines in Fallujah by falling on a live grenade. Peralta hasn’t yet been decorated for this bravery, because the investigation for medals this high up takes a while sometimes. > > Word is that the medal, when it comes through, will probably be a Medal of **Honor**. Thank you, Spanky-san, for giving Ling-Ling honor in hat form! [purrrrrr] ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-honor-a-lost-value/331081/53 "2005-11-15T19:46:04Z")
Charming. Belittling the bravery of a war hero is about what I’ve come to expect from you, **BrainGlutton**. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-honor-a-lost-value/331081/54 "2005-11-15T19:54:20Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Charming. > > Belittling the bravery of a war hero is about what I’ve come to expect from you, **BrainGlutton**. I’m not belittling his actions, but the idea that he can be properly rewarded with an ornament. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-honor-a-lost-value/331081/55 "2005-11-15T20:25:27Z")
H.G. Wells, in his _Outline of History,_ wrote of Napoleon that he “invented the Legion of Honor, a scheme for decorating men with bits of ribbon that clearly showed his understanding of human nature.” ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-honor-a-lost-value/331081/56 "2005-11-15T20:36:44Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Belittling the bravery of a war hero is about what I’ve come to expect from you, **BrainGlutton**. Do the words “Swift Boat Veterans for Truth” mean anything to you? Honor isn’t a lost value yet, despite the [efforts](http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Max_Cleland_070303.htm) of some folks to make it so. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-honor-a-lost-value/331081/57 "2005-11-15T21:01:42Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’m not belittling his actions, but the idea that he can be properly rewarded with an ornament. I tend to look at it like this. In the case of Daniel Fernandez which would be the persn who did this that I had interactions with, commemorating those actions is a way of him interacting with every one of us. Every kid that went to Daniel Fernandez Elementary, or Daniel Fernandez Intermediate when it was changed to 5-6th rather than K-4, had a relationship with Daniel Fernandez, it was probably where most of us were first introduced to the concept of someone throwing themselves on top of a grenade to save other people. So the medal of honor might seem cheap, but it’s largely about the ceremony surrounding it, the ritual of viewing that medal that will be passed down to the children of his brother’s and sisters etc… It’s not about the trinket and it’s value as a piece of matter, but about what it represents to the human beings doing the presentation of it. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-honor-a-lost-value/331081/58 "2005-11-15T21:43:22Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Thieves generally have more honor than the average I think. I know it seems like a paradox, but they’re willing to steal from people they’ve never met, but will go down fighting for their friends. I’d much rather live in a world where I could feel safe from thieves in strange towns than I would in a world where I could rely on my friends to help me fight the thieves when they do show up. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-honor-a-lost-value/331081/59 "2005-11-15T22:10:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’m not belittling his actions, but the idea that he can be properly rewarded with an ornament. He can always throw his decorations away and accuse his comrades of committing war crimes on a daily basis. Of course, if he ever wanted to run for President, he might have some trouble explaining his actions. Assuming he really was a man of honor. 😉 Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-honor-a-lost-value/331081/60 "2005-11-15T22:25:54Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > I’d much rather live in a world where I could feel safe from thieves in strange towns than I would in a world where I could rely on my friends to help me fight the thieves when they do show up. Heh, yeah, that was kind of a silly ill thought out statement. Erek [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-honor-a-lost-value/331081.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-honor-a-lost-value/331081.md?page=4)