# Is Howard Dean screwing up as DNC chairman? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 24, 2005, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-howard-dean-screwing-up-as-dnc-chairman/305273 "2005-05-24T16:25:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-howard-dean-screwing-up-as-dnc-chairman/305273/41 "2005-05-25T03:19:09Z")
Look, if you think Dean is doing fine, just say so. Or not. I’d love to hear your opinion one way or the other. But please leave my motivations for starting this thread out of it. Really, all I was after was a good discussion and some more insight into Howard Dean’s support. I have a healthy interest in a strong Democratic Party, even though I am a Republican. If you had researched my posts further, you would have known that this is an opinion I have held for some time. > [@Mr. Moto](#): > > The Democratic Party is in terrible condition, nationwide. Where once they dominated the statehouses and governors’ mansions, today they have lost tremendous ground to the Republicans. They used to hold power perennially in Congress, now they don’t. They may get it back, true, but they won’t hold it for a generation ever again. > > A true liberal Democrat hasn’t been elected to the White House since 1976, and his presidency was a miserable failure. Both of Bill Clinton’s victories were achieved with a major spoiler candidate running, and by co-opting many Republican issues. John Kerry is not pursuing this last strategy. > > This should be a signal that many Democratic positions aren’t ones that Americans in general share. If these questions are laid to rest as essentially settled issues in American politics, I believe there would be a resurgence in the fortunes of the Democrats, and a more healthy debate on national issues. > > …If this point ever came, I probably still wouldn’t vote Democratic, because of honest policy differences. But I wouldn’t fear for my country if an election were to not go my way once in a while. > [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Please understand me. I concede that I’m a quite partisan Republican and a generally conservative guy. But I have a great interest in a strong Democratic Party, one in touch with the voters _across the country_, and genuinely responsive to the country’s needs. > [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I believe a healthy two-party system has generally served America well, moderating our politics and stabilizing our political system greatly. > > Right now the Democrats are in bad shape, a state largely self-inflicted. I’m not so blindly partisan that I see Republican electoral strength as a given, nor do I welcome Democratic weakness. And being from the Pittsburgh area, I’m well acquainted with lots of honorable Democrats, many of whom are to some degree alienated from the national party. I think your selective quoting of me is the disingenuous action here. Perhaps my proposed solutions aren’t ones you want to implement. That’s fair. But accusing me of arguing in bad faith is another thing entirely, and I promise I haven’t been doing that. ---
**Author:** ![pdx\_craig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e495f1/32.png) [@pdx\_craig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pdx_craig)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-howard-dean-screwing-up-as-dnc-chairman/305273/42 "2005-05-25T03:21:13Z")
{b]DMC\*\*, You know just before this was posted, I had posted in a different thread how I would like to see a “How’s Dean doing so far” kind of thread. Granted " Is Howard Dean screwing up as DNC chairman?" is a little more loaded way to phrase it, but I think it’s something many of us are curious about. I don’t think it’s too late for this thread to have some interesting content regardless of Mr.Moto’s alleged motivations. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-howard-dean-screwing-up-as-dnc-chairman/305273/43 "2005-05-25T03:31:16Z")
Well, he could be trying to undermine the monolithic unity of the left. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-howard-dean-screwing-up-as-dnc-chairman/305273/44 "2005-05-26T02:55:33Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Look, if you think Dean is doing fine, just say so. Or not. I’d love to hear your opinion one way or the other. It’s way too soon to tell how he’s doing, in my opinion. > [@](#): > > But please leave my motivations for starting this thread out of it. Really, all I was after was a good discussion and some more insight into Howard Dean’s support. I’d happily do that, if your motivations weren’t so patently obvious. Even in the threads which you yourself cite, your main thrust is still the same. You basically repeat over and over again that the Democratic party would be better, if only they would become more like the Republican party. > [@](#): > > I have a healthy interest in a strong Democratic Party, even though I am a Republican. If you had researched my posts further, you would have known that this is an opinion I have held for some time. No, you’ve wanted a Republican Party-Lite that names itself the Democratic Party, so that no matter who wins an election, you’ll have your way on the issues. When you start telling us that we need more pro-gun, pro-business, pro-defense types who focus on homeland security, you’re not trying to “strengthen” the Democratic Party. I have a healthy interest in a strong Republican Party, even though I am a Democrat. The difference between us is that I want the Republican party to actually return to its roots (smaller federal government, state’s rights, etc.), not become more like the Democratic party. > [@](#): > > I think your selective quoting of me is the disingenuous action here. Hell, even the quotes **you** selected demonstrate what I’m saying, so I’m not being disingenuous at all. Are you selectively quoting yourself to look bad? You want us to be more like you, and tell us that we’ll be a better Democratic party if we are. If you truly want to play this card, I’ll happily go find more posts, and post them fully, so context can be appreciated, if you wish, but you’re doing a fine job without my help. > [@](#): > > Perhaps my proposed solutions aren’t ones you want to implement. That’s fair. But accusing me of arguing in bad faith is another thing entirely, and I promise I haven’t been doing that. Unless you truly believe this country needs two parties, the Republican Party, and the Republican Party, Jr., then yes, I think you’re arguing in bad faith. Hell, it would be like me telling you that the Republican Party would be stronger if only they’d be pro-choice, anti-death penalty, consumer protecting, socialized medicine advocating peaceniks. Wouldn’t you find me disingenuous if I proposed such a thing? ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-howard-dean-screwing-up-as-dnc-chairman/305273/45 "2005-05-26T02:58:00Z")
> [@pdx\_craig](#): > > You know just before this was posted, I had posted in a different thread how I would like to see a “How’s Dean doing so far” kind of thread. Granted " Is Howard Dean screwing up as DNC chairman?" is a little more loaded way to phrase it, but I think it’s something many of us are curious about. I don’t think it’s too late for this thread to have some interesting content regardless of Mr.Moto’s alleged motivations. I too would be happy to participate in such a thread, and either we can steer this one back that way, or start another one, but the OP has repeatedly tried to explain to us what is wrong with our party, and he’s repeatedly been wrong. It was time to call him on it. To try and get back to the topic, as I noted above, I think it’s too soon to tell for me. What’s your take, and what do you base it on? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-howard-dean-screwing-up-as-dnc-chairman/305273/46 "2005-05-26T10:52:19Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > No, you’ve wanted a Republican Party-Lite that names itself the Democratic Party, so that no matter who wins an election, you’ll have your way on the issues. When you start telling us that we need more pro-gun, pro-business, pro-defense types who focus on homeland security, you’re not trying to “strengthen” the Democratic Party. > > I have a healthy interest in a strong Republican Party, even though I am a Democrat. The difference between us is that I want the Republican party to actually return to its roots (smaller federal government, state’s rights, etc.), not become more like the Democratic party. Actually, when I call for the Democrats to become more pro-gun, pro-business and pro-defense, this is a call for the Democrats to return to their roots. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-howard-dean-screwing-up-as-dnc-chairman/305273/47 "2005-05-26T14:38:44Z")
[This](http://www.factcheck.org/article330.html) doesn’t really relate to the thread much, but since it involved Dean I figured I’d toss it in: > [@The Biography of a Bad Statistic](#): > > Finally, as recently as May 24, 2005 , Democratic National Committee chairman Howard Dean also asserted on NBC News’ Meet the Press: > > Dean:You know that abortions have gone up 25 percent since George Bush was President ? > > Dean’s “statistic” went unchallenged by moderator Tim Russert, so millions of viewers probably got the impression that Dean’s very specific 25 percent figure was correct. But Dean was wrong – and by a wide margin. It really shows how easy it is to manipulate people (especially politicians) with bad statistics if it says what they want it to say. It will be interesting to see if any Dopers start a thread about how abortion has risen under Bush…and how that thread progresses. Anyway, sorry for the hijack. Carry on. 🙂 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-howard-dean-screwing-up-as-dnc-chairman/305273/48 "2005-05-27T03:59:12Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > This is one of the most disingenuous OPs I’ve seen in a while. Mr. Moto, you could give a flying fuck about helping the Democrats win elections, you just want them to become more like Republicans so that when the country eventually realizes how stupid they’ve been, you won’t be faced with true liberal. Aren’t we expected to debate honestly in this forum? Wow, tears of laughter over that post. Someone defending John Dean by calling the opposing party stupid. John Dean simply reminds potential donors that someone as socially challenged as himself made it to the Democratic Primaries. Not exactly money well spent. He’s been shooting his mouth off from day one, which just makes it worse. His job is to raise money for the Democratic cause and as such he sets the tone. James Carville would have been a much better choice for the job. He can ramble on indefinitely without screaming incoherently or reverting to name calling and he always maintains a high level of energy. He’s even mellowed a little over the years. Plus he cooks up a good omelet when called upon. I’m on record as saying Dean was the wrong person for the job but if the powers-that-be want him I’m in full support of it. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-howard-dean-screwing-up-as-dnc-chairman/305273/49 "2005-05-27T05:36:36Z")
_John_ Dean? How [Fruedian](http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/). :wally ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-howard-dean-screwing-up-as-dnc-chairman/305273/50 "2005-05-27T08:13:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Wow, tears of laughter over that post. Someone defending John Dean by calling the opposing party stupid. Feel free to point out where I defended Dean in that statement. Otherwise, you’re just tossing punches at a strawman. I also didn’t call Republicans stupid. I was referring to people who put Bush in office, which is a group that includes Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, Independents, etc. I do apologize for making that “stupid” statement, however, as it is not really germane to the topic at hand, and is also too broad of a generalization to be completely accurate. > [@](#): > > John Dean simply reminds potential donors that someone as socially challenged as himself made it to the Democratic Primaries. Not exactly money well spent. Socially challenged? Want to give us specifics? > [@](#): > > I’m on record as saying Dean was the wrong person for the job but if the powers-that-be want him I’m in full support of it. Well, considering that you think that Bill Clinton was a socialist, I’m guessing we’re not going to be attempting to court your vote, but we’ll keep your opinion on Dean under advisement nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-howard-dean-screwing-up-as-dnc-chairman/305273/51 "2005-05-27T08:17:18Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Actually, when I call for the Democrats to become more pro-gun, pro-business and pro-defense, this is a call for the Democrats to return to their roots. I was referring to recent history, but you knew that. Otherwise, we’d be asking for our racists back, too. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-howard-dean-screwing-up-as-dnc-chairman/305273/52 "2005-05-27T10:15:33Z")
Completely untrue. I’m not saying the Democratic Patry shouldn’t have changed, but you threw some babies out along with that filthy water. When pro-gun, pro-business, and pro-defense Democrats actually run in America, they can be pretty hard to beat. I live in one of the redder states of the Union, and we have a Democratic governor who fits all of these categories, at least when measured against the rest of his party. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-howard-dean-screwing-up-as-dnc-chairman/305273/53 "2005-05-27T12:33:11Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Completely untrue. I’m not saying the Democratic Patry shouldn’t have changed, but you threw some babies out along with that filthy water. > > When pro-gun, pro-business, and pro-defense Democrats actually run in America, they can be pretty hard to beat. I live in one of the redder states of the Union, and we have a Democratic governor who fits all of these categories, at least when measured against the rest of his party. And I stated that a Democratic Party that goes out of its way to discriminate gays would likely be hard to beat, also. I still don’t want that party. Once again, my point was that you don’t want a stronger Democratic Party. You want a more “Republican-like” Democratic Party. I’m pretty comfortable that I’ve demonstrated that fact based on your posting history (hell, you even demonstrated it with your own quotes). When we decide that we want to become like Republicans, you will be one of the first people I recommend we go to for helpful advice, but until then, we’ll keep being Democrats. Oddly enough, even when we do have prominent members who embrace many Republican ideals, as soon as they get any sort of power, they become more viciiously dragged through the mud than their more liberal counterparts. Ask Magiver about Dean and Clinton, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-howard-dean-screwing-up-as-dnc-chairman/305273/54 "2005-05-28T00:00:53Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > Socially challenged? Want to give us specifics? 1. Yee Haw 2. This is a struggle of good and evil. And we’re the good. 3. “I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for, but I admire their discipline and their organization,” 4. “You think the Republican National Committee could get this many people of color in a single room?,” Dean asked to laughter. “Only if they had the hotel staff in here.” 5. “White folks in the South who drive pickup trucks with Confederate flag decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them.” It’s like watching Billy Carter sell beer. It’s both funny and sad. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2005, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-howard-dean-screwing-up-as-dnc-chairman/305273/55 "2005-05-28T02:25:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > 1. Yee Haw I don’t have a problem with this one at all. If your party doesn’t appreciate the vote of those who say “Yee Haw”, then you’ll be losing a lot of elections. You should embrace it. > [@](#): > > 1. This is a struggle of good and evil. And we’re the good. Don’t see a problem here either. Were you expecting him to say “I follow all Republican ideals and think we should emulate them. I also think we need to give the Patriot Act more teeth, and quadruple the defense budget while eliminating Welfare”, or something similar? You’re the opposition. > [@](#): > > 1. “I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for, but I admire their discipline and their organization,” He should have said “oppose” instead of hate and the statement would have been embraced by his audience and ignored by the opposition. He should probably apologize for the use of the word “hate.” Still, you should be flattered. He’s giving Rove and Co. props here. > [@](#): > > 1. “You think the Republican National Committee could get this many people of color in a single room?,” Dean asked to laughter. “Only if they had the hotel staff in here.” Valid sentiment and not problematic in itself. Unfortunately, too easy to twist into various meanings. While Dean doesn’t see blacks as hired help, apparently some of his opponents do, which made this one easy to spin without a lot of thought. He needs to be smarter in his phrasings, but can continue to emphasize that the Republicans aren’t doing much to court the black vote. They’re not. You are aware that his predominantly black audience gave him a standing ovation after this speech, correct? > [@](#): > > 1. “White folks in the South who drive pickup trucks with Confederate flag decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them.” He’s right, they should be voting for Democrats if they want their best interests to be considered. Brazilians in Minnesota who drive SUVs with pictures of Calvin pissing on Ford should also vote with us. The problem is that many of the folks in the rural south are single or double-issue voters, and they happen to align with Republicans on that one or two issue in many cases. This isn’t just a problem in the south. There are plenty of people who agree with the Democratic Platform across the board, with the exception of a single thing like gun control or gay rights. Unfortunately, they are voting based on those single issues. This is little different from Libertarians voting for Republicans. Other than fiscally, Libertarians align closer to Democrats than Republicans. The thing is, Republicans don’t actually practice the fiscal conservativism that is supposed to be the attraction to the Libertarians, and have larger governments than their Democratic counterpart. Nevertheless, Libertarians continue to trend Republican. Either they’re lying about their social stances, they’re suckered by talk of fiscal responsibility, despite the evidence, or I’m missing something. That’s all you’ve got? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2005, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-howard-dean-screwing-up-as-dnc-chairman/305273/56 "2005-05-28T03:39:22Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > That’s all you’ve got? I had to delete most of my response because it read too snarky but those weren’t points to debate. Dean is certainly a diamond in the rough. Time will tell if his foot-in-mouth problems get better or worse. He just strikes me as a poor speaker. His interviews are brutal to watch because of the weird expression he gets when he goes into spin mode. He would die a quick death at the poker table. It’s hard to describe but I’ve seen it a number of times during an interview. When cornered he pulls his head back and proceeds to grin like something between Charlie McCarthy and Jack Nickelson in the Shining. A little practice in front of a mirror would help. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-howard-dean-screwing-up-as-dnc-chairman/305273/57 "2005-05-29T17:53:51Z")
I think Dean is doing a pretty good job, but he could do better. And I think Mr. Moto _kinda_ has things right as to where the Dems should go policy-wise. To be specific: 1. Pro-business. No, the Dems should not call themselves pro-business, because that sets them up as anti-workers, which is not something Dems want to be. Dems should call themselves pro-economy. Their economic line should be: “Unlike the Republicans, who want to manage our economy so that only wealthy CEOs and stockholders benefit from these stinking “jobless recoveries” we’ve been having, we want to manage our economy so that EVERYONE benefits, especially the middle class. If the middle class enjoys success in our economy, you know what? Everyone else: the business, shareholders, the poor: will too.” Pro-gun. Frankly, I think the Dems should drop gun control as a major plank in their platform except for outrageous things like no waiting periods, cop-killer bullets and giving guns to felons. If the Pubbies and the NRA then want to run on a platform of “Let a man buy a gun while he’s still mad as hell” “Cop killer bullets for everyone” and “Guns for felons” then let them. We’ll see how far they get with that. Pro-defense. The Dems should say, “We are strongly for defending the US against terrorists and other foreign threats, and that includes avoiding getting into unneccesary and protracted wars with countries on false pretences.” There, if Mr. Moto can accept these versions of the Dem platform, we’re in complete agreement. I think many Dems maight be. I also think the Dems should avoid pushing the issue of gay marriage, opting instead to do a lot of education and outreach behind the scenes. Obviously, the votes aren’t here for that and won’t be here until a lot of minds have been changed. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2005, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-howard-dean-screwing-up-as-dnc-chairman/305273/58 "2005-05-29T20:02:33Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > You know what? We don’t need your advice. Here’s hoping that the majority of your ideological brethern feel as you do, DMC. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2005, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-howard-dean-screwing-up-as-dnc-chairman/305273/59 "2005-05-29T20:44:35Z")
Well, let’s see - shrill, self-righteous, condescending to minorities, consumed with hatred for anyone who dares disagree with him - Dean sounds like the quintessential Democrat for the twenty-first century to me. 😉 Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2005, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-howard-dean-screwing-up-as-dnc-chairman/305273/60 "2005-05-29T20:49:36Z")
I forgot to mention, he just got thru losing a Presidential election. So his qualifications are that much better! Go Dean! And take the rest of the extremist losers with you! Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-howard-dean-screwing-up-as-dnc-chairman/305273.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-howard-dean-screwing-up-as-dnc-chairman/305273.md?page=4)