Is Ice Dancing a Sport?

I agree almost entirely with your process, but not your conclusion. I share your expansive definition of sport, the only tweak being that mine clarifies that the fundamental thing being measured, or pitted against on another, must be a physical skill. So, chess is not a sport (because we’re not comparing how good people are at physically picking up and moving the pieces), but golf is, even though overweight, out of shape, and even handicapped people can be excellent golfers. There’s a little gray area (auto racing?), but mostly this definition does everything I want it to do while offending as few people as possible.

However, I don’t think ice dancing qualifies. Clearly there’s a physical component but – and I’d welcome correction on this point by an expert – it seems to me that what’s being compared isn’t primarily physical skill, because all of the actual competitors are basically equally as good at the moves that they’ll actually be doing. It seems that what’s *primarily *being compared is artistic merit. No doubt there are some slight, relevant differences in physical skill for Olympic ice dancers, but those are generally not going to be decisive. Compare this with figure skating, in which there’s an important artistic component, but *fundamentally *the competitors are being measured on their ability to perform jumps, etc. cleanly.
As an aside, I’ve never understood why so many people throw in the requirement that a sport can’t have outcomes determined by judges. It seems totally arbitrary, to say nothing of the fact that it leads one to the conclusion that this was a sporting event while this was merely a game. (Note: I’m not including in my complaint those who’ve clarified above that this is just a distinction about which sports they prefer.)

I’m no expert (at least, I don’t see myself as one), but I am a former ice dancer.

Artistic merit does factor into it, but it is not as important (IME) as the technical requirements. Just about every foot movement you see in ice dancing has a name and a defined movement, and it is (a) the ability to perform that foot movement in time to the music, and (b) at the same time as your partner performs it, as required, that helps to define the technical score.

“Set pattern dances” you don’t see much of on TV, but they exist, and you will get nowhere in ice dancing until you master them all. They can actually be plotted and planned on a piece of paper, including all steps, positions (waltz, Kilian, reverse Kilian, for example), and tempo.

“Free dances,” which you’ll often see on TV, are usually created by the skaters’ coach, and are made up of movements that one learns from doing the set pattern dances. In other words, you learn the basics by doing the set patterns, then you can improvise at the national, world’s, or Olympic level.

Unlike pairs figure skating, ice dancing does not allow spectacular and jaw-dropping lifts and throws (though these might occur in non-competition exhibitions), nor does it allow partners to be out of each other’s touch for more than a certain period of time (sorry, I cannot remember what amount of time, but it is measured in seconds). You also won’t see jumps or spins in competition.

When I watch ice dancing on TV, I look at the footwork, at the time the partners spend in contact with each other, and how they work together. For me, an ice dancing competition is mainly technical; artistry comes in second.

Ice dancing was fun. I got into it when I was young–in my teens–and it was a blast. Unlike many of my peers, who wanted to be hockey stars and hung out in the locker room with other guys, I got to touch, hold, and embrace young ladies who were wearing little more than leotards every day at practice. What wasn’t to like?

But can a line be drawn somewhere between types of judging?

There’s the type of judging based more on applications of a rule, for example; was that an accidental or deliberate handball, did that punch land or not land. Then there’s the type of judging based more on personal opinion such as points for style or artistic interpretation.

It might not be a fine, bright line, but I think there is one.

Huh, interesting. I’ll defer to your judgment, Spoons. Thanks.

I see your objection but must point out two things.

  1. Your understanding of the physical components of ice dancing is terribly incorrect. It is absolutely not true that the competitors are “Basically equal” in their proficiency in the physical moves they do. The difference in skill is as great as in anything else you’ll see at the Olympics. You might not be able to SEE it if you’re not familiar with the sport, just as I can’t really tell what separates an OK soccer midfielder from a great one, but it is certainly there.

  2. I wholly agree that the “artistic” element is a weird wrench thrown into the mix, and it really pushes ice dancing to the brink of disqualification, but looking at it on the whole I think it’s more sport than not. You could eliminate costumes and artistic merit and the sport would basically be the same, just with different scores.

I guess my point here is that there’s not always absolute clarity in what separates sport from not a sport, and ice dancing is a close one.

While curling isn’t darts or pool, it’s hardly a physically demanding sport. I suppose it depends on your definition of “good shape”.

I don’t think we’re judging the activity based on the relative fitness of the participants. Though I think it would not be entirely unfair to generalize.

But how are they at the activity that makes them ripped?

Soccer players have MUCH better hand/foot-eye co-ordination than professional swimmers. Doesn’t mean Michael Phelps isn’t a top notch athlete.

Skill is an important part of darts and billiards. Neither of which are sports and neither is golf or curling.

I am of the opinion that if it’s judged, it’s performance art, not a sport. Not that that doesn’t make it awesome or require tremendous physical ability or years of dedicated training or whatever. These types of pursuits aren’t objectively inferior to sports, just different.

I’ve long said that if I ran the world, there would be three Olympics- summer sports, winter sports, and performance art. The latter would have all the figure skating and gymnastics, plus synchronized swimming, a couple of ski events, and so forth. It would also be open to various types of dance competitions and cheerleading. This would keep all the sports purists happy, give more cities opportunities to host Olympics, and eliminate exactly this sort of discussion every time the Olympics is going on.

Boxing is judged but doesn’t really seem to be a performance art of any kind. The solution to this dilemma would be to eliminate it entirely because it’s stupid.

Boxing does have an objective conclusion - battering the opponent into unconsciousness or submission. The judging is only required to make it somewhat less barbaric/dangerous.

Never mind for a moment how much skill, physicality, strength or endurance ice dancing may require. Remember, instead, what’s really important:

The Olympics in general (and ESPECIALLY the WInter Olympics) are NOT sports programming. They’re women’s entertainment programming.

When you watch the Winter Olympics, pay attention to the commercials. Are you seeing ads for beer, pickup trucks or Army recruiting? Of course not, because advertisers know that MEN (the usual audience for sports programming) aren’t watching. WOMEN are. Hence, the ads will be geared to women, as will the maudlin commentary.

Olympic Hockey is pretty damn good, though, and I’d guess that attracts mostly men… Canadian men :slight_smile:

And the Men’s Downhill Alpine Skiing is just break-neck, awesome. You train for it for 4 years, and then if you break wind at the wrong time, it costs you 13/100th of a second and you end up without a medal. Next time use Beano!

Is anyone willing to bet that the Russians will not will Ice Dancing gold in Sochi?

And running ultramarathons isn’t baseball. But what’s harder; pro football or hockey? How do you compare basketball to swimming?

The critical aspect to a sport, IMHO, is that it is a contest of physical skill, not physical fitness, though of course fitness may to some degree be an aspect of skill. Clearly, though, physical fitness is not the end-all of sports success or else an exceptionally fit person would excel in all sports. But that is not the case; Michael Phelps is a great swimmer but cannot, so far as we know, play professional level golf, soccer, or basketball.

[QUOTE=astorian]
Of course not, because advertisers know that MEN (the usual audience for sports programming) aren’t watching.
[/QUOTE]

More men will watch the Olympics than will watch the Super Bowl.

It requires physical effort and athleticism and is a competition, so I would call it a sport IF it wasn’t fixed. They may have cleaned it up somewhat, but in the past it was decided who got which medal before the competition even started. With clean judging, it seems to me to be as legitimate as ski jumping and gymnastics.

Worldwide, I don’t doubt that’s true. But no American male willingly watches figure skating or gymnastics. If he watches, it’s because his wife controls the TV remote.

The Summer Olympics have been women’s programming in the US at least since 1972, when Olga Korbut stole the show. The Winter Olympics have been women’s programming at least since Peggy Fleming.

You think any sports bars will be showing figure skating or ice dancing from Sochi on their big screen TVs? Think they’ll be showing the latest May Lou Rettons in 2016? I doubt it.

I’ll watch as much of the Hockey I can find time for. Plus Downhill Alpine events (Men & Women), Ski Jump (both long and short) and as much of the Cross Country that they decide to show. (And every one of those except X-country will be shown in sports bars.)

For some reason, I’ve always enjoyed the Winter Olympics more than the Summer. It probably had to do with growing up in New England, and the fact that there were less events to keep track of. Although, in the past 20 years, they’ve added events like short-track speed skating ,and mogul ski stuff – stuff that I really just consider clutter.

And I do hate the “formula” that ABC came up with years ago, where they’ll hype the event at 8:00, and then wait until 10:55 to actually show it – even though the whole thing transpired 12 hours ago.

Are you kidding? Katarina Witt was enough to make any male want to watch ice skating. Some of these girls are seriously hot.

Yeah Witt skated practically half naked sometimes. That’s sometimes why I watch football: to admire male muscle power. That’s much of the fun of watching the men’s gymnastics.

It’s easy:
If I enjoy it, it’s a sport.
If you enjoy it, it’s a waste of goddamn time, is what it is.

Katarina Witt last skated 20 years ago. Since then, you’d have to be a pedophile to ogle ANY of the gymnasts or MOST of the female skaters.