# Is Illinois really that politically corrupt? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 27, 2015, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-illinois-really-that-politically-corrupt/723598 "2015-06-27T04:47:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-illinois-really-that-politically-corrupt/723598/21 "2015-06-30T12:51:24Z")
Ed Zotti talks about it in The Barn House, so while not the Master (Cecil), it’s like getting word from the Pope 😉 ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-illinois-really-that-politically-corrupt/723598/22 "2015-06-30T15:20:38Z")
> [@desertmonk](#): > > Do you have a cite for this being the way business is typically done in illinois? That’s not how it’s typically done in Illinois. One can order a copy of his birth certificate online, by phone, by mail, at a currency exchange, or in person at the County Clerk’s office. Payment is by credit card. [http://www.cookcountyclerk.com/vitalrecords/birthcertificates/Pages/default.aspx](http://www.cookcountyclerk.com/vitalrecords/birthcertificates/Pages/default.aspx) How can you bribe someone online? It’s not like there’s two payment fields, one for $15 to the Clerk’s Office, and an additional $10 to Sal in Accounting. ---
**Author:** ![allyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@allyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/allyn)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-illinois-really-that-politically-corrupt/723598/23 "2015-06-30T16:03:23Z")
One of my favorite columns…focused on Chicago corruption but touched on the state as well: [http://chicago.straightdope.com/sdc20090514.php](http://chicago.straightdope.com/sdc20090514.php) ---
**Author:** ![stillownedbysetters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/41988e/32.png) [@stillownedbysetters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stillownedbysetters)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-illinois-really-that-politically-corrupt/723598/24 "2015-06-30T22:11:17Z")
> [@desertmonk](#): > > Do you have a cite for this being the way business is typically done in illinois? Nope, I do not. My information is 100% word of mouth, obtained at various Chicago expatriate events and related by former Chicago residents. If you wish, you may certainly consider it 100% fictional. There exists a certain preponderance of evidence in the fact that so many of the stories are so similar, but at present, they are unsubstantiated oral histories. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-illinois-really-that-politically-corrupt/723598/25 "2015-06-30T22:43:24Z")
> [@Mr\_Downtown](#): > > My recollection is that there was a colorable claim that the potential “kickback” (no money ever actually changed hands) could just as well be characterized as a finder’s fee or broker’s commission. There was no victim; Vrdolyak and Levine had negotiated an excellent sale price for the Chicago Medical School property, even getting CMS a large increase over the original deal. [Press release describing the indictment.](http://www.justice.gov/usao/iln/pr/chicago/2007/pr0510_01.pdf) There certainly was a victim. Lets say you were one of the property companies trying to buy the property. How would you feel if if you found out that your bid, which was supposed to be sealed, was disclosed to one of your competitors so that he could deliberately adjust his bid to outbid you in exchange for a payment of $1.5 million to one of the people who had access to the bids. Would you think that was fair? Would you say the person who was taking money in exchange for disclosing private information wasn’t doing anything wrong? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-illinois-really-that-politically-corrupt/723598/26 "2015-06-30T23:35:06Z")
> [@stillownedbysetters](#): > > Nope, I do not. My information is 100% word of mouth, obtained at various Chicago expatriate events and related by former Chicago residents. If you wish, you may certainly consider it 100% fictional. There exists a certain preponderance of evidence in the fact that so many of the stories are so similar, but at present, they are unsubstantiated oral histories. Generally, unsubstantiated oral histories do not qualify as a “preponderance of evidence”. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-illinois-really-that-politically-corrupt/723598/27 "2015-07-01T04:00:22Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > There certainly was a victim. Lets say you were one of the property companies trying to buy the property. How would you feel if if you found out that your bid, which was supposed to be sealed, was disclosed to one of your competitors so that he could deliberately adjust his bid to outbid you Where do you get the idea that the bids are—or are supposed to be—sealed, in a transaction like this? Negotiated sales are quite common in commercial real estate. The seller’s objective is to get the most money possible for a property, and that may include the strategy of telling purchasers that someone has offered more money, or several rounds of bidding. Agents who do this successfully are usually rewarded with even bigger future assignments, not prosecuted under an “honest services” theory. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-illinois-really-that-politically-corrupt/723598/28 "2015-07-01T15:36:44Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Generally, unsubstantiated oral histories do not qualify as a “preponderance of evidence”. I’ve had no issue obtaining a birth certificate for my brother a couple decades ago, and a relative in Poland just needed to get one for her son a few months ago and I directed her to the online form. There was no problem getting the certificate. I have no idea why it was so difficult for stillownedbysetter’s friend to get his birth certificate, but no bribery or expediting fee is required or expected. ---
**Author:** ![stillownedbysetters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/41988e/32.png) [@stillownedbysetters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stillownedbysetters)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-illinois-really-that-politically-corrupt/723598/29 "2015-07-01T18:05:54Z")
Holy Toledo. I seem to have opened the proverbial crock o’shite here. I’m going to try to say this with as little nuance as humanly possible. A - My original post was slightly tongue in cheek. B - I spent the first 40 years of my life living in The Region and working in Chicago, so I do have at least marginal knowledge of the place C - I offend attend gatherings for Cubs fans, Bears fans, Blackhawks fans, and alumni events for my college which more often than not contain a large number of Chicago expats. D - Yes, there is often alcohol involved in these events E - I have heard numerous stories of additional payments being made for public services rendered in Chicago. I have heard these stories from different people and at different times. I have heard them over a period of years. That’s a fair amount of evidence, anecdotal though it may be F - I’m assuming. Yes, I admit to assuming. I’m assuming there is some fire somewhere accounting for such a high degree of smoke G - Yes, I was attempting some sardonic humor which clearly fell flat H - Yes, I will go away now and leave y’all to your discussion ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-illinois-really-that-politically-corrupt/723598/30 "2015-07-01T19:05:42Z")
> [@stillownedbysetters](#): > > He called his dad and asked the going rate for a birth certificate. Dad filled him in, he went back downtown, anted up the expected ‘expediting fee’ and all was well. This would happen in 1960. It would not happen today. As **Cecil** correctly notes in the linked column, low-level transactional corruption is on the wane, if not gone. The drivers license wrapped in the ten-dollar bill, the bribed barber-shop inspector, the clerk looking for a “gift”–their day has passed. There are too many cameras and microphones, and too much business conducted online. Public employees figured out long ago that it was easier to unionize for better pay and benefits than to hustle nickel-and-dime bribes. Today’s corruption is white-collar. The building permit for a condo development, the lower tax assessment, city business for your law firm–these are the things that require a bribe, either legally in the form of campaign contributions or illegally in the form of elk trophies for a politician. (I’m looking at you, Jeese Jackson Jr.) A copy of a birth certificate? Don’t waste our time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-illinois-really-that-politically-corrupt/723598.md?page=1)