# Is instant stooging in magic performances a cheat? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 18, 2018, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-instant-stooging-in-magic-performances-a-cheat/819845 "2018-08-18T20:16:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2018, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-instant-stooging-in-magic-performances-a-cheat/819845/21 "2018-08-19T12:32:39Z")
On real stooges, my opinion is a bit nuanced. A small number of stooges is acceptable, where “a small number” depends on the audience size. If you’re doing a trick in front of two people, and one of them is in on it to fool the other, that’s not a magic trick, that’s monkey-in-the-middle where you don’t even let the third person know they’re a monkey. On the other hand, if you’re doing a trick in front of an audience of a thousand people, it’s fine if you need three of them to be in on it. The trick then becomes how to make it look like that was enough people. For instance, there’s an old mentalist’s trick (typically performed in front of 50-100 people) where you supposedly read _everyone_ in the room, which depends on one out of those 50-100 being a plant. That’s fine, provided it isn’t too obvious how you did it: Every one of your legit audience members gets to experience the trick, and they each know they weren’t a stooge, so it _couldn’t_ have been done using stooges (except that it totally was). On the other hand, Copperfield’s levitating railroad car, in which every single one of the physically-present audience members was a stooge, was just plain stupid. > [@](#): > > Quoth **SenorBeef** : > > I usually appreciate when a magician demonstrates the randomness of audience participants by doing stuff like throwing a frisbee into the crowd, and then asking whoever caught it to throw it again in a random direction. It’d be really hard to fake that sort of audience selection. Now, see, that has the opposite effect on me. To me, it just screams “I’m using a stooge”, and it turns the trick, in my eyes, from “How did he do \ without using a stooge?” into “How did he get the stooge to end up with the frisbee?”, which is a less interesting trick (especially since it’s a trick you end up seeing so many times). I’d much prefer the magician to just point to some audience member and say “Hey, you”, and then set up the trick in such a way that it doesn’t seem like having a stooge would matter. > [@](#): > > Quoth **RealityChuck** : > > No top-notch magician uses stooges, either planted or involuntary. That sounds like a no true Scotsman, to me, since you have to define David Copperfield, Cris Angel, and David Blaine as not “top-notch magicians”, despite being quite famous and successful. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2018, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-instant-stooging-in-magic-performances-a-cheat/819845/22 "2018-08-19T12:55:55Z")
This whole thread might have been a better discussion if the OP had given even one example where a stage magician had used an instant stooge. Otherwise, this is all theoretical. As in “Don’t you feel cheated when you go to the bank and the teller slips $20 of your cash into their pocket?” So I’ve got to ask… Cite? ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2018, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-instant-stooging-in-magic-performances-a-cheat/819845/23 "2018-08-19T13:09:50Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It’s not nearly as cheaty as saying “The camera will be on constantly!” and then having the camera operator get “distracted” into looking at something else while the trick is loaded. Criss Angel was big on this when he was doing so-called “up close street magic.” Yeah, I agree that for a televised performance, cutting away, showing a poor angle, etc. are cheating. Sadly, on _Penn & Teller: Fool Us_ sometimes they cut to a long shot or a blocked angle at a key point. This lessens the enjoyment of the act considerably. A good magician will look good even with a normal framing and angle. (I don’t expect the camera to show what’s going on well beyond a regular audience view.) ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2018, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-instant-stooging-in-magic-performances-a-cheat/819845/24 "2018-08-19T13:44:24Z")
> [@digs](#): > > This whole thread might have been a better discussion if the OP had given even one example where a stage magician had used an instant stooge. Otherwise, this is all theoretical. As in “Don’t you feel cheated when you go to the bank and the teller slips $20 of your cash into their pocket?” > > So I’ve got to ask… Cite? Brian Brushwood, _Penn & Teller: Fool Us_, Season 2, Episode 3, 20 July 2015. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2018, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-instant-stooging-in-magic-performances-a-cheat/819845/25 "2018-08-19T14:52:57Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > Brian Brushwood, _Penn & Teller: Fool Us_, Season 2, Episode 3, 20 July 2015. Citation accepted. In fact, I’m bowing in your general direction. I had NO idea a legit magician would do this… …and yes, I do feel cheated. Less so than if I’d paid to see his act, where he’d be clearly “cheating the audience”… here he knows he has no chance of cheating his audience of two (P&T), and is going for entertaining the masses. And he’s clearly not trying to fool anyone once he eats the dollar bill at the end. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2018, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-instant-stooging-in-magic-performances-a-cheat/819845/26 "2018-08-19T18:53:46Z")
When I watch a trick, if there’s some incredibly lame and straightforward way to accomplish it, I almost have to trust that the magician isn’t using that incredibly lame and straightforward method, or else it’s no fun to watch. Stooges is the most obvious lame/straightforward method, so I assume magicians don’t use it, and totally feel cheated if they did. (Camera angles are similar). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-instant-stooging-in-magic-performances-a-cheat/819845/27 "2018-08-19T19:22:42Z")
I think one of **Scylla** ’s epic stories started with a magic trick that he did where he appeared to pull a dime out of his nostril, which he actually did by… actually pulling it out of his nostril. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2018, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-instant-stooging-in-magic-performances-a-cheat/819845/28 "2018-08-19T23:48:02Z")
Now THAT I would pay to see. And it might fool Penn & Teller, too. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-instant-stooging-in-magic-performances-a-cheat/819845/29 "2018-08-20T00:28:03Z")
> [@digs](#): > > Now THAT I would pay to see. > > And it might fool Penn & Teller, too. Well, there’s this guy: [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MY5bKirs12c) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-instant-stooging-in-magic-performances-a-cheat/819845/30 "2018-08-20T01:21:05Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > To those here who feel very strongly that using the “instant stooge” technique is dishonest, how would you behave if you were in the audience at a magic show, got called on stage to be the magician’s volunteer, and were asked by the magician to cooperate in the deception? Would you go along with the trick, or would you refuse? Would it matter if the event was being held at a small local club versus one that was to be broadcast on network TV? I can’t tell you for sure. I can tell you that I would want to shout out that the guy is faking and that it is a shitty trick. I also know that I would be in a panic at the time, and might just freeze up, or if they badger me at all, go along with it to get out of the situation. Or I might just have that panic fuel a rage: you know, fight or flight (or freeze). The main problem with any sort of using stooges is that it makes the trick so trivial as to not be worth watching. It’s the same reason why camera trickery is considered “cheating.” So I have no problem with calling it that. Now, if they fool the stooge into doing one thing while making the audience think they are doing another, that I can say counts as okay. And I’m okay with attempts at forces that can backfire–as long as they can recover. But not with just having someone who simply lies. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-instant-stooging-in-magic-performances-a-cheat/819845/31 "2018-08-20T02:12:12Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > To those here who feel very strongly that using the “instant stooge” technique is dishonest, how would you behave if you were in the audience at a magic show, got called on stage to be the magician’s volunteer, and were asked by the magician to cooperate in the deception? Would you go along with the trick, or would you refuse? Would it matter if the event was being held at a small local club versus one that was to be broadcast on network TV? There’s no way I’d be a total asshole about it, but I’d probably go along in a pretty unenthusiastic fashion, and be done with the magician from then on, and would happily tell my friends afterward. So I guess just mostly an asshole about it :). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-instant-stooging-in-magic-performances-a-cheat/819845/32 "2018-08-20T21:03:48Z")
Of course, the magicians who use such techniques are usually pretty good at sizing up who’s likely to go along with it or not, and so they wouldn’t pick either of you in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-instant-stooging-in-magic-performances-a-cheat/819845/33 "2018-08-21T00:20:26Z")
How about reversing it where the entire audience is the stooge playing against the non-stooge brought on stage. I’ve seen that where a magician is doing a trick with a person on stage who has no idea how it is being done but the magician is letting the audience see and entirely dependent on nobody shouting out to the guy on stage. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-instant-stooging-in-magic-performances-a-cheat/819845/34 "2018-08-21T00:30:49Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > All of magic is cheating. The whole point of magic is cheating the audience’s senses. Spot on, I was once used as a stooge (30 years ago) and due to my acting people still talk about it today! ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-instant-stooging-in-magic-performances-a-cheat/819845/35 "2018-08-21T00:33:40Z")
I think using stooges isn’t magic, it’s acting. I didn’t pay to see a stage play. Making comments like “were you disappointed real magic wasn’t used?” is just being snotty. Real magic doesn’t exist, but “real magic” is a practiced skill that looks like real magic, and preferably the only people who know how the trick was done were the magician and assistant. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-instant-stooging-in-magic-performances-a-cheat/819845/36 "2018-08-21T04:37:28Z")
> [@obfusciatrist](#): > > How about reversing it where the entire audience is the stooge playing against the non-stooge brought on stage. I’ve seen that where a magician is doing a trick with a person on stage who has no idea how it is being done but the magician is letting the audience see and entirely dependent on nobody shouting out to the guy on stage. Only one person doesn’t know what has happened and will find out soon after. The magician isn’t trying to deceive anyone about the skills involved. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-instant-stooging-in-magic-performances-a-cheat/819845.md?page=1)