# Is internet shaming a good way to combat racism and bigotry? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 7, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082 "2017-05-07T19:39:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/221 "2017-05-10T21:47:38Z")
Did Hillary attempting to shame trump voters by calling them undesirables decrease his voters? I think it increased them. Do atheists win over many theists by shaming them with comments about flying spaghetti monsters? I think it strengthens their resolve. So why would you think shaming racists would lead to less racism? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/222 "2017-05-10T22:09:34Z")
Because it is the perfect nexus of righteous and fun? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/223 "2017-05-10T22:43:57Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Okay, first of all, the OP asked this question: > > I answer “No it doesn’t deter, and yes it does inflame tensions.” > Like everyone else here, I loathe the woman in the clip, but at the end of the day all she’s an unimportant rando committing a thought crime. And then a news outlet presents it in Onion-worthy format… “local racist woman says some racist things, and people are sharing it.” > Sorry pit-lovers, but the SDMB BBQ pit is absolutely inconsequential when it comes to shaming. The audience is scrawny, the reach is trivial. Show me an SDMB post that’s ever been shared a million times on Twitter. Or heck, a hundred times. And then I’ll be asking whether it’s shame-related. > > ETA: Tangential, but if anyone ever does pit me, kindly send a PM so I can notice and give a damn. Exactly. The Pit and it’s 15 viewers aren’t what is meant by internet shaming. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/224 "2017-05-10T22:52:28Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Because it is the perfect nexus of righteous and fun? and there you have the real reason why trolls advocate shaming. because they’re better than everyone else, and everything is just a big game to them! ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/225 "2017-05-10T22:59:47Z")
not accusing **scumpup** of trolling ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/226 "2017-05-10T23:21:59Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Exactly. The Pit and it’s 15 viewers aren’t what is meant by internet shaming. As the OPer, I’ve been using a pretty broad definition of “internet shaming”. IMHO, my definition includes any negative commentary directed towards someone or a group that occurs on public forums. Like the SDMB. (I don’t do Facebook or Twitter, so I wouldn’t know about the shaming that goes on in those venues). It is obvious to me that some people are defining “internet shaming” to only encompass those activities that they personally find abhorrent. I’m pretty dang sure I can find instances of all the “LEAVE THE RACISTS ALONE!!” posters saying something negative about someone in their posting history. So it is clear to me that people’s sanctimony re “mob justice” is a lot more nuanced than what their posts here are implying. If the lady at Trader Joe’s wanted to find out the internet buzz about her, she’d easily be able to pull up this thread in her google searches. And if she’s like 90% of the human population, she’d probably feel bad about some of the judgments that have been issued by us–including those by **HMS Irruncible**. Some people seem to think that alone is bad, since apparently there’s nothing worse in the universe than a racist with hurt feelings. Do you agree with this sentiment? Or are you only afraid of word getting out to her employer and her friends? Every time I watch the news, various people are shamed for crimes they haven’t been convicted of. And yet no one seems to worry about their lives being ruined. In fact, I am willing to bet that you wouldn’t have a problem if you knew about an employer who let an employee go after seeing their mug shot. Wouldn’t even matter if the alleged crime wasn’t related to the employee’s job duties. Am I right in this assumption? If I am, explain to me why this is so different from an employer firing a person who has been caught in public doing something that is undeniably socially inappropriate? Because I don’t see that there is a meaningful difference between shaming someone for breaking a law and shaming someone for breaking the social contract (aka “don’t start none, won’t be none”). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/227 "2017-05-10T23:23:31Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > (aka “don’t start none, won’t be none”) I always thought this expression was “don’t start nothin’, won’t be nothin’”. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/228 "2017-05-10T23:28:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I always thought this expression was “don’t start nothin’, won’t be nothin’”. I only know the [African American](http://blkproverbs.tumblr.com/post/87911379755/dont-start-nonewont-be-none) proverb version. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/229 "2017-05-10T23:33:52Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I only know the [African American](http://blkproverbs.tumblr.com/post/87911379755/dont-start-nonewont-be-none) proverb version. I defer to your expertise! ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/230 "2017-05-10T23:52:06Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > As the OPer, I’ve been using a pretty broad definition of “internet shaming”. IMHO, my definition includes any negative commentary directed towards someone or a group that occurs on public forums. Like the SDMB. (I don’t do Facebook or Twitter, so I wouldn’t know about the shaming that goes on in those venues). > > It is obvious to me that some people are defining “internet shaming” to only encompass those activities that they personally find abhorrent. I’m pretty dang sure I can find instances of all the “LEAVE THE RACISTS ALONE!!” posters saying something negative about someone in their posting history. So it is clear to me that people’s sanctimony re “mob justice” is a lot more nuanced than what their posts here are implying. Internet shaming that leads to being ghosted and losing a job for a few years is different than obscure people posting to a miniscule audience and achieving no impact. > [@](#): > > If the lady at Trader Joe’s wanted to find out the internet buzz about her, she’d easily be able to pull up this thread in her google searches. And if she’s like 90% of the human population, she’d probably feel bad about some of the judgments that have been issued by us–including those by **HMS Irruncible**. Some people seem to think that alone is bad, since apparently there’s nothing worse in the universe than a racist with hurt feelings. Do you agree with this sentiment? Or are you only afraid of word getting out to her employer and her friends? > > Every time I watch the news, various people are shamed for crimes they haven’t been convicted of. And yet no one seems to worry about their lives being ruined. In fact, I am willing to bet that you wouldn’t have a problem if you knew about an employer who let an employee go after seeing their mug shot. Wouldn’t even matter if the alleged crime wasn’t related to the employee’s job duties. Am I right in this assumption? If I am, explain to me why this is so different from an employer firing a person who has been caught in public doing something that is undeniably socially inappropriate? Because I don’t see that there is a meaningful difference between shaming someone for breaking a law and shaming someone for breaking the social contract (aka “don’t start none, won’t be none”). You’d lose that bet. I don’t think a person should be convicted by the press or by a mob. Even after a conviction, after time served or whatever, I think the person, in most cases, ought to be able to find employment. ---
**Author:** ![purplehearingaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@purplehearingaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehearingaid)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/231 "2017-05-10T23:53:56Z")
I think if this bigot did loose her job the first thing she would do is to blame Muslims and Obama . I really don’t think you can shame people that are bigots , they’ll just get angrier and become bigger bigots ! Bigots will need to get over their fear of Muslims first and I don’t see that happening . ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/232 "2017-05-10T23:58:28Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Internet shaming that leads to being ghosted and losing a job for a few years is different than obscure people posting to a miniscule audience and achieving no impact. > > You’d lose that bet. I don’t think a person should be convicted by the press or by a mob. Even after a conviction, after time served or whatever, I think the person, in most cases, ought to be able to find employment. I agree that once a person has served time, they should be able to resume a normal existence. But I think employers have the right to decide for themselves if they want a crime suspect working for them. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/233 "2017-05-11T00:02:18Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I agree that once a person has served time, they should be able to resume a normal existence. > > But I think employers have the right to decide for themselves if they want a crime suspect working for them. Anyone can be accused of a crime though. I’m not saying employers don’t have the right to hire who they wish. I just don’t think it’s fair to fire someone merely for being a suspect ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/234 "2017-05-11T00:24:23Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Anyone can be accused of a crime though. I’m not saying employers don’t have the right to hire who they wish. I just don’t think it’s fair to fire someone merely for being a suspect I think people should be judged on a case by case basis. That includes both employer and employee. I would have a problem if an employer fired someone for simply being caught plucking dandelions out of their neighbor’s backyard. Because this is a very trivial act. (In fact, I would probably be so bothered that I would stop patronizing that employer’s business.) But I would not have a problem if an employer fired someone for verbally harrassing children on their way to school every morning. I would probably have a problem with an employer who fires someone based on a unverified rumor. But I would not have a problem with an employer firing someone based on video footage and a confession. Nuance. It’s a thing. I’m having a hard time understanding the “NO ONE SHOULD BE FIRED FOR ANYTHING!!” position you seem to be espousing. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/235 "2017-05-11T00:34:26Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I think people should be judged on a case by case basis. That includes both employer and employee. > > I would have a problem if an employer fired someone for simply being caught plucking dandelions out of their neighbor’s backyard. Because this is a very trivial act. (In fact, I would probably be so bothered that I would stop patronizing that employer’s business.) > > But I would not have a problem if an employer fired someone for verbally harrassing children on their way to school every morning. > > I would probably have a problem with an employer who fires someone based on a unverified rumor. > > But I would not have a problem with an employer firing someone based on video footage and a confession. > > Nuance. It’s a thing. > > I’m having a hard time understanding the “NO ONE SHOULD BE FIRED FOR ANYTHING!!” position you seem to be espousing. I never said that. I said being accused of a crime can happen to anyone. Firing someone because of an accusation, imho, isn’t fair. I’d like a conviction or very convincing evidence. I’m for at will employment so I don’t know where’d you get the idea that I’m against firing people. I just think rational people should employ reason. Let’s say you were accused of something by a let’s say a mad spouse or ex. Would it be cool to lose a job or friends because of accusations? I’m not sure why people want to live in a vengeful medieval world. It seems sad and unnecessarily hostile. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/236 "2017-05-11T00:35:03Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I think people should be judged on a case by case basis. That includes both employer and employee. > > I would have a problem if an employer fired someone for simply being caught plucking dandelions out of their neighbor’s backyard. Because this is a very trivial act. (In fact, I would probably be so bothered that I would stop patronizing that employer’s business.) > > But I would not have a problem if an employer fired someone for verbally harrassing children on their way to school every morning. > > I would probably have a problem with an employer who fires someone based on a unverified rumor. > > But I would not have a problem with an employer firing someone based on video footage and a confession. > > Nuance. It’s a thing. > > I’m having a hard time understanding the “NO ONE SHOULD BE FIRED FOR ANYTHING!!” position you seem to be espousing. What about someone who, as the video appeared, harrassed some children on their way to school one morning? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/237 "2017-05-11T01:10:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > … If I see someone behave very poorly, can I tell my friends about it? How about the local news? Does it change things if I recorded it? Under what circumstances am I obligated to be quiet about something I saw? Under what circumstances can I tell others, and who can I tell? > > I’m interested in the actual behavior you think I should change. If you can’t give me any pointers, then how am I supposed to learn what you think I should do? I am glad to answer your questions to the best of my own humble opinions (well recap what I have already stated) but first must note that what you are asking about is not the subject of the op. The op is specifically asking about conscious efforts to bring so much wide public ridicule that the offender is minimally made a public example of, and for our op, so much so that others will be fearful of the same consequence happening to them and thus behave better: “to keep people from acting shamefully. And that’s really all that matters”. The point of “public shaming” is to spread it to as many as possible and if the subject of the shaming is unidentified to cause the person to be identified and to suffer consequences. We’ll leave my belief that the real reason is because it is safe for them fun just like stoning witches likely was aside and take the motivation as stated at face value. The op’s article discusses how the McLellan wants the video to spread and the writer for New York Magazine and The Daily Beast who shared the video on his Twitter page specifically is shouting out for people to identify the woman and give him her name. It is not just telling your friends. It is not commentary. It is not “any negative commentary directed towards someone or a group that occurs on public forums …” The answers to your specific questions depend, wotta surprise, on the specifics. When you witness something and tell your friends about it is your intent to punish the person you are talking about, or something else? What sort of things would you tell the local news about and what would be your reason for dong so? What do you hope to happen as a result of doing so? What was the venue of the offense you witnessed? Is the scope and scale of the response similar to the offense (e.g. speaking up as offensive speech is spoken to someone that such is not cool, or responding to a message board post on the same board?) How much power does the offender have? How big of a soapbox are they using? Is there a direct victim of the offender who is powerless to avoid or respond to an attack upon them? General guiding principles IMHO. If your desire is merely to vent or to discuss with friends something that you’ve seen then no problem. A person who has a large soapbox or has great power who is abusing that soapbox or that power, especially using it to significantly victimize someone (or something, I’d throw in animal abuse here) who is powerless to fight back, and for whom the system is failing to offer reasonable help, is fair game. Fairly standard issue jerky behavior from someone who has no pre-existing large soapbox or great power, who know little about other than that one snippet, that one action? The crime being the level of offensive speech or disrespectful actions not specifically addressed to someone under the control of the offender (as in an employer to an employee or teacher to class or judge to defendant) … trying to spread it around in order to humiliate the person is unwarranted. Person in line calls me a kike\* and states that Jews control the banks and the media and were the force actually behind the twin towers collapse? Someone records it. Putting it out on the local news, asking for people to identify the person, who to the best of my knowledge is a no one, creating a circumstance in which others will work to getting that person fired from whatever his or her job is maybe? Wrong for me to do, wrong for an observer to do, if done wrong for me to help spread the video, and wrong for me to join the chorus wishing for harms to befall upon that person. \*Have I been called a kike in my life? Yes. Specifically a “jew boy kike” … I was younger and speech response unfortunately escalated, happy and surprised I was to leave the circumstance unscathed … but even his bloody nose, and self-defense I swear, is small compared to the loss of job and hope for ghosting that is wished for by our op on those who she believes deserve “shaming.” ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/238 "2017-05-11T01:18:23Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I never said that. I said being accused of a crime can happen to anyone. Firing someone because of an accusation, imho, isn’t fair. I’d like a conviction or very convincing evidence. > > I’m for at will employment so I don’t know where’d you get the idea that I’m against firing people. I just think rational people should employ reason. Let’s say you were accused of something by a let’s say a mad spouse or ex. Would it be cool to lose a job or friends because of accusations? Perhaps I think that’s your position because of this: > [@monstro](#): > > I don’t want to live in a society where people are afraid to be out in public because might be yelled at for having a certain skin color or religious affiliation. People operate suboptimally when they have to deal with that kind of shit. So I’m generally supportive of people doing whatever they want to do to stamp out the most flagrant offenders, short of breaking criminal or civil laws. That includes everything from tongue-clucking all the way to launching a Facebook campaign. > > What is your vision for a society? Is it is one where only some people get to speak their minds and others must be quiet, because otherwise that means someone might will lose their job? That sounds like a nightmare society to me. I don’t want my freedoms held hostage just so we can brag about having full employment. > [@octopus](#): > > Yours is a dystopic vision. Mine is not. Furthermore, if I would do as you suggest I’d obviously be a hypocrite. You had your opportunity to clearly state your position with regards to employment, and you blew it to get a jab at me. My vision of society is one where everyone gets to do what they want to do. Your vision of society is one where some people get to do what they want to do, while everyone else looks the other way. That strikes me as bizarrely unfair. I think everyone should be free. Free to speak. Free to feel. Free to react. I don’t think a video like the one in the OP is at all similar to an unsubstantiated rumor. I don’t think most internet shaming is based on mere “he said, she said”, since 99% people know that folks are given to exaggerating the truth. But video footage doesn’t lie. If I was caught on video doing something undeniably awful, I wouldn’t expect my employer to wait for my side of the story before firing me. But I would have a different expectation if there was a rumor going around about me. Rumors are often inaccurate. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure why people want to live in a vengeful medieval world. It seems sad and unnecessarily hostile. :dubious: You seem to think that people should get to say and do whatever they want without facing any logical consequences. Perhaps such a world would be possible if we were all lobotomized, but that’s not the kind of world I’d want to live in. I like living in a society where everyone is free to do whatever they want and free to _then live with the consequences that follow_. Once a person does something loud and wrong in public eye, they allow for all kinds of consequences. It’s immature for them to demand only the good consequences but cry “unfair!!” when faced with the negative ones. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/239 "2017-05-11T01:27:03Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > What about someone who, as the video appeared, harrassed some children on their way to school one morning? Can you think of any good reason to harrass children? I’m not talking about merely fussing at them (“Be good little boys and girls and get off my lawn.”). I’m talking about bonafied harrassment (“YOU LITTLE SPICS, NIGGERS, AND KIKES BETTER GET OFF MY LAWN!!”) If it’s the second, I would have no problem with an employer firing the person. If it’s the first, then I think the employer should be internet shamed. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/240 "2017-05-11T01:35:52Z")
You said “every day” without mentioning all the racial epithets. I asked you about one day. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082.md?page=13)