# Is internet shaming a good way to combat racism and bigotry? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 7, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082 "2017-05-07T19:39:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/241 "2017-05-11T01:55:43Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > You said “every day” without mentioning all the racial epithets. I asked you about one day. I shed zero tears for someone who loses their job because they were caught harrassing anyone at any frequency. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/242 "2017-05-11T02:14:53Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > You seem to think that people should get to say and do whatever they want without facing any logical consequences. Personally, I quite like the sound of that. Look, if someone wants to say racist stuff in public they should be allowed to. Other people should be allowed to say “Dude, not cool”. What other people should _NOT_ be allowed to do is go and find that person’s employer, friends, family, dog-walker and tennis partners and say “THIS PERSON IS HORRIBLE AND IF YOU DON’T IMMEDIATE DISASSOCIATE YOURSELF FROM THEM YOU ARE ALSO EQUALLY HORRIBLE.” Nor should news outlets be allowed to report on the resulting pile-on, IMHO. A world where people are free to be racist/sexist/other-ist dickheads in public and not likely to face serious and wide-ranging consequences for it is, for me, preferable to a world where people aren’t free to do those things because having an unpopular/“wrong” opinion could ruin their lives. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/243 "2017-05-11T03:02:08Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I shed zero tears for someone who loses their job because they were caught harrassing anyone at any frequency. Nice to know that you’d be okay with people losing their jobs for harassing people on line in attempts to shame them. FWIW I would not be. Unless you were doing it on company time. Let me share something that happened at the college my youngest son attends, [Oberlin](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/04/us/oberlin-professor-accused-of-anti-semitic-remarks-is-placed-on-paid-leave.html). A professor in her FaceBook account made a series of posts that were widely seen as antiSemitic and they were certainly stupid. The internet outrage grew. The administration initially defended her rights to express personal views but eventually the attention was too much. She was put on leave and then later dismissed. To the best of my incomplete knowledge she does not yet have another job. To me that was abhorrent. I can see it if it was in the classroom or misusing her academic pulpit. But I do shed tears when free speech on your own time only means speech to say that which I do not find objectionable, under threat of loss of livelihood. Of course “demanding it” is within your free speech too … ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/244 "2017-05-11T03:09:14Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Personally, I quite like the sound of that. > > Look, if someone wants to say racist stuff in public they should be allowed to. Other people should be allowed to say “Dude, not cool”. What other people should _NOT_ be allowed to do is go and find that person’s employer, friends, family, dog-walker and tennis partners and say “THIS PERSON IS HORRIBLE AND IF YOU DON’T IMMEDIATE DISASSOCIATE YOURSELF FROM THEM YOU ARE ALSO EQUALLY HORRIBLE.” Nor should news outlets be allowed to report on the resulting pile-on, IMHO. I disagree that people shouldn’t be allowed to go find someone’s employer, friends, family etc. First off, how do you keep someone from finding this information? I don’t think it needs to be broadcast on the six o’clock news. But depending on the nature of the shameful act, I don’t think people should necessarily withhold all identifying information on the chance that someone might go tattle-telling to that person’s employer. Cuz maybe the employer _should be_ informed. I can think of all kinds of hypothetical situations where it would be 100% appropriate to tell an employer what you saw their employee doing. (Like, no one should be afraid to snitch on a school teacher who is caught terrorizing little children.) > [@](#): > > A world where people are free to be racist/sexist/other-ist dickheads in public and not likely to face serious and wide-ranging consequences for it is, for me, preferable to a world where people aren’t free to do those things because having an unpopular/“wrong” opinion could ruin their lives. I’m confused. A bunch of people have expressed the sentiment that shaming doesn’t actually stop anyone from doing anything, but rather it just emboldens them to do more. You seem to think shaming is TOO effective because it paralyzes people with the fear of making the “wrong” choice. Which is it? Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t think it’s THAT hard not being an asshat in the public eye. I don’t think the line separating asshat from non-asshat is THAT blurry such that actual fear is warranted. I mean, when was the last time you went into a grocery store and called people names? If you don’t do this and have no desire to do this, why would you be afraid? Years ago I was sexually harrassed in the workplace. I endured the horrible feelings (talk about being afraid) because I didn’t want to get the jerk fired. You know what? In retrospect, now I recognize that was stupidness on my part. My life is just as important as anyone else’s. No one should feel afraid to “ruin someone’s life” if that someone is ruining theirs or someone else’s. All lives matter. Not just the lives of bullies. You’re essentially telling victims to suck it up, because their right to happiness and freedom isn’t as important as the right for someone else to say and do what they want to do. In my world, everyone’s rights are the same. You have the right to mess with me, yes. But I have the mess with you back. If you don’t want to lose your job, then don’t mess with me. You have the right to free speech. But you don’t have the right to a job, friends, or family. If a person expects to have ALL of these things no matter where there free speech takes them, well, they are wanting way too much. The world simply doesn’t work this way. If all I do is tell someone’s employer, friends, family,etc. what they’ve been doing to me and I show them video footage as proof, I haven’t made anyone do anything. I’ve just spread the news about who that person is, just in case people don’t know. It’s up to them to decide how they want to use this information. They are even free to “internet shame” me in response. If I’m launching an unfair attack against someone, I would totally deserve it. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/245 "2017-05-11T03:17:18Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Perhaps I think that’s your position because of this: > > You had your opportunity to clearly state your position with regards to employment, and you blew it to get a jab at me. My vision of society is one where everyone gets to do what they want to do. Your vision of society is one where some people get to do what they want to do, while everyone else looks the other way. That strikes me as bizarrely unfair. I think everyone should be free. Free to speak. Free to feel. Free to react. > > I don’t think a video like the one in the OP is at all similar to an unsubstantiated rumor. I don’t think most internet shaming is based on mere “he said, she said”, since 99% people know that folks are given to exaggerating the truth. But video footage doesn’t lie. If I was caught on video doing something undeniably awful, I wouldn’t expect my employer to wait for my side of the story before firing me. But I would have a different expectation if there was a rumor going around about me. Rumors are often inaccurate. > > :dubious: > > You seem to think that people should get to say and do whatever they want without facing any logical consequences. Perhaps such a world would be possible if we were all lobotomized, but that’s not the kind of world I’d want to live in. I like living in a society where everyone is free to do whatever they want and free to _then live with the consequences that follow_. Once a person does something loud and wrong in public eye, they allow for all kinds of consequences. It’s immature for them to demand only the good consequences but cry “unfair!!” when faced with the negative ones. You keep mischaracterizing my position and then argue against a strawman. I’m not the one wishing that severe harm comes to another for expressing an ugly opinion. That’s you and that is a, imho, shameful point of view. Would I act to ruin your life over shameful words on this board? No. I’d use reason to try to sway you that perhaps severe life changing events, such as losing a job for years, is not just punishment, vindictiveness, etc. for a rant. What the zealots on this issue are missing is a sense of proportionality. I’d rather live in a society that tolerated a bit of coarseness and vulgarity than be perpetually paranoid that I’m not virtuous enough. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/246 "2017-05-11T03:25:36Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Nice to know that you’d be okay with people losing their jobs for harassing people on line in attempts to shame them. I said I would not shed a tear. Not that I would be “okay”. Just in case you don’t know, these expressions are not equivalent. Are you saying you would shed a tear if you heard about someone “harassing people on line in attempts to shame them” being fired? Because if you would shed a tear, especially without knowing the specifics of the situation, then I think it’s fair to say you are much more sensitive than the most sensitive SJW. Every day thousands of people are let go from their jobs for very piddly crimes. Like showing up to work five minutes late or going to the bathroom one too many times. I feel bad for these people because I can imagine being in their shoes. But no, I cannot say I feel bad for people who get fired for doing things I personally think are indefensible. I would never personally harrass anyone (as in directing messages at them personally so as to intimidate them and undermine their peace of mind). Not even a serial killer baby rapist who eats dolphins for breakfast. So I can’t find sympathy for someone who finds themselves in this situation. I wouldn’t be gleeful about some random harrasser being fired, but I wouldn’t feel sad either. You seem to think I’m a fan of all flavors of internet shaming. I’m not. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/247 "2017-05-11T03:27:46Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I disagree that people shouldn’t be allowed to go find someone’s employer, friends, family etc. First off, how do you keep someone from finding this information? I don’t think it needs to be broadcast on the six o’clock news. But depending on the nature of the shameful act, I don’t think people should necessarily withhold all identifying information on the chance that someone might go tattle-telling to that person’s employer. Cuz maybe the employer _should be_ informed. I can think of all kinds of hypothetical situations where it would be 100% appropriate to tell an employer what you saw their employee doing. (Like, no one should be afraid to snitch on a school teacher who is caught terrorizing little children.) > > I’m confused. A bunch of people have expressed the sentiment that shaming doesn’t actually stop anyone from doing anything, but rather it just emboldens them to do more. You seem to think shaming is TOO effective because it paralyzes people with the fear of making the “wrong” choice. Which is it? > > Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t think it’s THAT hard not being an asshat in the public eye. I don’t think the line separating asshat from non-asshat is THAT blurry such that actual fear is warranted. I mean, when was the last time you went into a grocery store and called people names? If you don’t do this and have no desire to do this, why would you be afraid? > > Years ago I was sexually harrassed in the workplace. I endured the horrible feelings (talk about being afraid) because I didn’t want to get the jerk fired. You know what? In retrospect, now I recognize that was stupidness on my part. My life is just as important as anyone else’s. No one should feel afraid to “ruin someone’s life” if that someone is ruining theirs or someone else’s. All lives matter. Not just the lives of bullies. > > You’re essentially telling victims to suck it up, because their right to happiness and freedom isn’t as important as the right for someone else to say and do what they want to do. In my world, everyone’s rights are the same. You have the right to mess with me, yes. But I have the mess with you back. If you don’t want to lose your job, then don’t mess with me. You have the right to free speech. But you don’t have the right to a job, friends, or family. If a person expects to have ALL of these things no matter where there free speech takes them, well, they are wanting way too much. The world simply doesn’t work this way. > > If all I do is tell someone’s employer, friends, family,etc. what they’ve been doing to me and I show them video footage as proof, I haven’t made anyone do anything. I’ve just spread the news about who that person is, just in case people don’t know. It’s up to them to decide how they want to use this information. They are even free to “internet shame” me in response. If I’m launching an unfair attack against someone, I would totally deserve it. You don’t get it. Your particular sense of what’s right and what’s wrong and what should be the target of a horde of internet trolls from something like 4chan is different than others. Weaponized internet nerdism can be dangerous. Even on a forum like this people can find out who you are and make your life miserable. That’s not cool. Not for expressing opinions. Even the Pit is a bit much. I’m for free speech, you know that. But people can choose how to react to jackassery and work to make a situation better or worse. Do you think society as a whole likes this idea of internet shaming? Or do you think there may be a bit of a backlash? ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/248 "2017-05-11T03:42:35Z")
I have a lot of mixed feelings about this. First, as someone who has said more than my share of really stupid things in life, I’m really glad that I said them off camera. I know there are many people who would feel comfortable if their darkest secrets were played on Youtube, but I’m definitely not. Internet shaming, or any other kind of shaming, can lead to overkill. This is true of shaming in real life. One author noted that the reason many people like big cities is that small towns can be “one mistake” territory. You make one mistake and you are tagged forever with that. “That’s Jill, she got pregnant before she was married.” And it doesn’t matter that Jill is 93, the oldest person in town and no one else alive then is around now. On the other hand, how do we deal with hateful people? Here on the Dope, we have the Pit, for all the good it does. Maybe it lets us get out some of the frustration, but it doesn’t seem the change people’s behavior. However, OTOH, if one is the target of disrespect because of one’s color, gender or sexual attraction, then I can empathize with wanting to find a way to reduce the frequency of the disrespect. I see disrespect towards particular groups here on the Dope a lot. A number of female posters have either left or said they take breaks because of the misogyny here. It’s not every male poster, but too many. That certainly extends to the feelings towards LDBTQ individuals, with not so subtle reminders that they are different and that people are too lazy to be inclusive. I haven’t seen as much about race, besides a few posters who are (best said in the Pit). If one were facing discrimination in one’s daily life or it’s something which occurs toward that person, then it’s really easy to empathize with the desire to strike back. Even if one doesn’t necessarily agree with the tactics. I wonder how much outrage about it is that this happens to people who traditionally wouldn’t be the targets of shaming in real life. I think there is truth in the concept of white privilege and male privilege. Racism isn’t treated harshly enough in real life, IMHO. The same as the put downs towards women and LGBTQ individuals. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/249 "2017-05-11T03:54:22Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You keep mischaracterizing my position and then argue against a strawman. I’m not the one wishing that severe harm comes to another for expressing an ugly opinion. That’s you and that is a, imho, shameful point of view. No, I think people who act like park apes in public deserve whatever they’ve got coming to them. “What they’ve got coming to them” can include anything from being laughed at to losing their job. If nothing happens to them, that’s fine too. But I’m all for people giving them what-for as long it is legal and proportionate. > [@](#): > > Would I act to ruin your life over shameful words on this board? No. I’d use reason to try to sway you that perhaps severe life changing events, such as losing a job for years, is not just punishment, vindictiveness, etc. for a rant. Some people can’t be reasoned with no matter what you say to them. But maybe the fear of “severe life changing events” will keep them from acting in unreasonable ways. And I disagree that losing one’s job is “life ruining”. Many people lose their jobs over much milder offenses than being an asshole in the public sphere. They recover from it. There’s no rule that says “once unemployed, always unemployed”. I really don’t understand this crazy obsession with employment you seem to have. > [@](#): > > What the zealots on this issue are missing is a sense of proportionality. I’d rather live in a society that tolerated a bit of coarseness and vulgarity than be perpetually paranoid that I’m not virtuous enough. I’ve been anxious over a lot of things in my life. But never once have I been afraid of losing my job because I might be caught on camera yelling racial slurs at someone. To me, it’s like being afraid that you might be arrested for grand larceny. The only people with this fear are people who commit grand larceny. If fear is what’s keeping them in line, then that means the system is working. I don’t know what’s so wrong with expressing your ugly opinions around your friends and family and posting them on anonymous message boards, while keeping them out of the check-out line of the Trader Joe’s when talking to a stranger who’s done a solid for you. Why is it so important to be able to express ugly opinions all the time, everywhere, to anyone and not suffer _any_ negative ramifications? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/250 "2017-05-11T04:32:02Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > No, I think people who act like park apes in public deserve whatever they’ve got coming to them. “What they’ve got coming to them” can include anything from being laughed at to losing their job. If nothing happens to them, that’s fine too. But I’m all for people giving them what-for as long it is legal and proportionate. > > Some people can’t be reasoned with no matter what you say to them. But maybe the fear of “severe life changing events” will keep them from acting in unreasonable ways. > > And I disagree that losing one’s job is “life ruining”. Many people lose their jobs over much milder offenses than being an asshole in the public sphere. They recover from it. There’s no rule that says “once unemployed, always unemployed”. I really don’t understand this crazy obsession with employment you seem to have. > > I’ve been anxious over a lot of things in my life. But never once have I been afraid of losing my job because I might be caught on camera yelling racial slurs at someone. To me, it’s like being afraid that you might be arrested for grand larceny. The only people with this fear are people who commit grand larceny. If fear is what’s keeping them in line, then that means the system is working. > > I don’t know what’s so wrong with expressing your ugly opinions around your friends and family and posting them on anonymous message boards, while keeping them out of the check-out line of the Trader Joe’s when talking to a stranger who’s done a solid for you. Why is it so important to be able to express ugly opinions all the time, everywhere, to anyone and not suffer _any_ negative ramifications? I don’t see this crazy obsession with punishing those you disagree with. We both have our flaws. And again you say “any” and “proportionate” that’s fine. Something and proportionate is fine. But your OP was not lose a job and get one immediately. Your OP was to lose a job for years and be ghosted by all friends. If you don’t see the distinction I can’t help you. And isn’t referring to another human as an “ape” considered by many to be racist speech? You also mention talking with friends. Maybe venting or something. In private. Well, sometimes friends have a figurative knife as Hulk Hogan and Donald Sterling found out. Hulk Hogan at least sued and collected damages from Gawker. To your credit, I do think your intentions are good and noble. I just think the methodology is full of unintended consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/251 "2017-05-11T08:59:49Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I disagree that people shouldn’t be allowed to go find someone’s employer, friends, family etc. First off, how do you keep someone from finding this information? I don’t think it needs to be broadcast on the six o’clock news. But depending on the nature of the shameful act, I don’t think people should necessarily withhold all identifying information on the chance that someone might go tattle-telling to that person’s employer. Cuz maybe the employer _should be_ informed. I can think of all kinds of hypothetical situations where it would be 100% appropriate to tell an employer what you saw their employee doing. (Like, no one should be afraid to snitch on a school teacher who is caught terrorizing little children.) Whereas I’m very much of the belief that what you do in your own time is none of your employer’s business, as long as it doesn’t impact your ability to do your job. Being a teacher who terrorises small children is directly related to one’s field of employment and is relevant. Being a racist asshat has nothing to do with someone’s ability to be an accountant or a cleaner or a builder or an architecht, unless they’re silly enough to say racist asshatful things at work. > [@](#): > > I’m confused. A bunch of people have expressed the sentiment that shaming doesn’t actually stop anyone from doing anything, but rather it just emboldens them to do more. You seem to think shaming is TOO effective because it paralyzes people with the fear of making the “wrong” choice. Which is it? It’s both, and it depends what you’ve got to lose. If you’re a bogan working in a factory, and your colleagues are bogans of the “Drive a V8 with a Bundy Rum Bear rear window ticker” variety, them being “shamed” is just going to reinforce your sense of “other people telling you what to do so fuck them”. On the other hand, if you work in a professional role - one where people complaining on social media could get you in a lot of trouble, even if only for “bringing the company into disrepute” - then it’s a real concern. > [@](#): > > Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t think it’s THAT hard not being an asshat in the public eye. I don’t think the line separating asshat from non-asshat is THAT blurry such that actual fear is warranted. I mean, when was the last time you went into a grocery store and called people names? If you don’t do this and have no desire to do this, why would you be afraid? The problem is that the definition of “being an asshat” is extremely subjective now. I’ve probably described someone annoying me by taking 50 items through the express lane as “retarded” before, which I’m sure lots of people here would find objectionable. My concern is basically that because nearly everything is offensive to someone nowadays, (generic) you could find yourself potentially getting shamed for almost _anything_. > [@](#): > > You’re essentially telling victims to suck it up, because their right to happiness and freedom isn’t as important as the right for someone else to say and do what they want to do. In my world, everyone’s rights are the same. You have the right to mess with me, yes. But I have the mess with you back. If you don’t want to lose your job, then don’t mess with me. You have the right to free speech. But you don’t have the right to a job, friends, or family. If a person expects to have ALL of these things no matter where there free speech takes them, well, they are wanting way too much. The world simply doesn’t work this way. It would if people like you didn’t think it was OK to try and get people fired or ostracised for having opinions they didn’t like. And sometimes yes, I think victims _should_ suck it up - especially if the only thing that’s truly been hurt is their feelings. > [@](#): > > If all I do is tell someone’s employer, friends, family,etc. what they’ve been doing to me and I show them video footage as proof, I haven’t made anyone do anything. I’ve just spread the news about who that person is, just in case people don’t know. It’s up to them to decide how they want to use this information. They are even free to “internet shame” me in response. If I’m launching an unfair attack against someone, I would totally deserve it. Yes you have. You know (more or less) _exactly_ what is going to happen when you show someone the video footage of someone they know doing something you don’t like. You wouldn’t do it unless you wanted that person to get in trouble. Now, if that person is actually threatening/assaulting/insulting you personally, that’s one thing - but just a “This guy is being a jerk in the supermarket, look at him raging about all the smelly foreign people clogging up the queues!” is not something that warrants going to someone’s boss/friends/family and saying “This person is a racist asshat! Disassociate yourselves from them immediately or face the consequences!” ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/252 "2017-05-11T11:42:18Z")
**Martin** , are you seriously telling me there is absolutely no situation that would warrant someone telling someone else about a socially inappropriate person (however you want to define that)? You seem to agree with me about that the school teacher’s shameful behavior should have implications for her employment. What if the Trader Joe’s lady’s employer is Muslim, and most of their staff and customers are Muslim? Do you not think that her employer has no vested interest in knowing if Trader Joe’s Lady is a virulent anti-Muslim? Do you think he or she would have hired her knowing that’s how she acts in public? If I had been in the store and had recorded Trader Joe’s lady being an asshat (can you at least agree she was an asshat?), and I showed the video to my Muslim friend, who recognized her as employee of a Muslim-focused business she frequents, who is the villain? Me, for showing the video to someone? Or my friend, for telling the business owner about the video? If the business owner asks to see the video and decides to fire the employee over it (knowing there’s no way he would have hired her if he had known that’s how she comports herself), is _he_ a bad guy? Why is he the bad guy for simply acting on information he asked for? Isn’t he just exercising his free speech? I don’t know if you know this is what you’re advocating, but you’re basically saying that if you witness something that’s socially inappropriate or you’re the target of something that’s socially inappropriate, you need to keep it to yourself. Because if you don’t, word can spread and a life “ruined”. I’m amenable to the argument that videos shouldn’t be aired on TV all willy-nilly. But I’m not at all convinced that simply talking about a bad person in my community, who is negatively affecting me or someone important to me, is shameful all by itself. Cuz free speech, man. If I can pretend your free speech doesn’t hurt me, then you can pretend that my free speech doesn’t hurt you. Or, we can both decide that free speech isn’t harmless and that it can be a weapon. So if you’re shooting at people with your words, you either need to be prepared to catch your own bullets, even “disproportionate” ones, or you need to only shoot at people who welcome being shot at (like online message boards like this one). I don’t think there is an epidemic of people getting fired over “internet shaming”. There does seem to be an epidemic of people getting fired for mouthing off on the internet on Facebook and Twitter, though. I expect this isn’t going away anytime soon. Blame it on all the wonderful freedom we have. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/253 "2017-05-11T11:51:51Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > **Martin** , are you seriously telling me there is absolutely no situation that would warrant someone telling someone else about a socially inappropriate person (however you want to define that)? I can’t say _absolutely_ no situation, but as a general rule I can’t think of a likely encountered situation that would warrant me telling people about a socially inappropriate person in a way that could identify that person. > [@](#): > > [You seem to agree with me about that the school teacher’s shameful behavior should have implications for her employment. What if the Trader Joe’s lady’s employer is Muslim, and most of their staff and customers are Muslim? Do you not think that her employer has no vested interest in knowing if Trader Joe’s Lady is a virulent anti-Muslim? Do you think he or she would have hired her knowing that’s how she acts in public? I think it’s not my place to tell him. If the hypothetical woman in our example can keep her racist asshattery out of the workplace then I’m not going to upset the applecart. > [@](#): > > If I had been in the store and had recorded Trader Joe’s lady being an asshat (can you at least agree she was an asshat?), and I showed the video to my Muslim friend, who recognized her as employee of a Muslim-focused business she frequents, who is the villain? Me, for showing the video to someone? Or my friend, for telling the business owner about the video? You’re the one who started the chain reaction so you’re still getting some of the blame in this hypothetical, IMO. If the business owner asks to see the video and decides to fire the employee over it (knowing there’s no way he would have hired her if he had known that’s how she comports herself), is _he_ a bad guy? Why is he the bad guy for simply acting on information he asked for? Isn’t he just exercising his free speech? > [@](#): > > I don’t know if you know this is what you’re advocating, but you’re basically saying that if you witness something that’s socially inappropriate or you’re the target of something that’s socially inappropriate, you need to keep it to yourself. That’s pretty much my position, actually. The world would be a much, _much_ better place if people learned to mind their own fucking business, basically. > [@](#): > > But I’m not at all convinced that simply talking about a bad person in my community, who is negatively affecting me or someone important to me, is shameful all by itself. Cuz free speech, man. If I can pretend your free speech doesn’t hurt me, then you can pretend that my free speech doesn’t hurt you. Or, we can both decide that free speech isn’t harmless and that it can be a weapon. So if you’re shooting at people with your words, you either need to be prepared to catch your own bullets, even “disproportionate” ones, or you need to only shoot at people who welcome being shot at (like online message boards like this one). The thing is, I have a complicated relationship with the concept of “free speech”, and by American standards I don’t really support it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/254 "2017-05-11T11:55:02Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I am glad to answer your questions to the best of my own humble opinions (well recap what I have already stated) but first must note that what you are asking about is not the subject of the op. > > The op is specifically asking about conscious efforts to bring so much wide public ridicule that the offender is minimally made a public example of, and for our op, so much so that others will be fearful of the same consequence happening to them and thus behave better: “to keep people from acting shamefully. And that’s really all that matters”. The point of “public shaming” is to spread it to as many as possible and if the subject of the shaming is unidentified to cause the person to be identified and to suffer consequences. > > We’ll leave my belief that the real reason is because it is safe for them fun just like stoning witches likely was aside and take the motivation as stated at face value. > > The op’s article discusses how the McLellan wants the video to spread and the writer for New York Magazine and The Daily Beast who shared the video on his Twitter page specifically is shouting out for people to identify the woman and give him her name. > > It is not just telling your friends. It is not commentary. It is not “any negative commentary directed towards someone or a group that occurs on public forums …” > The answers to your specific questions depend, wotta surprise, on the specifics. > > When you witness something and tell your friends about it is your intent to punish the person you are talking about, or something else? > > What sort of things would you tell the local news about and what would be your reason for dong so? What do you hope to happen as a result of doing so? > > What was the venue of the offense you witnessed? Is the scope and scale of the response similar to the offense (e.g. speaking up as offensive speech is spoken to someone that such is not cool, or responding to a message board post on the same board?) How much power does the offender have? How big of a soapbox are they using? Is there a direct victim of the offender who is powerless to avoid or respond to an attack upon them? > > General guiding principles IMHO. > > If your desire is merely to vent or to discuss with friends something that you’ve seen then no problem. > > A person who has a large soapbox or has great power who is abusing that soapbox or that power, especially using it to significantly victimize someone (or something, I’d throw in animal abuse here) who is powerless to fight back, and for whom the system is failing to offer reasonable help, is fair game. > > Fairly standard issue jerky behavior from someone who has no pre-existing large soapbox or great power, who know little about other than that one snippet, that one action? The crime being the level of offensive speech or disrespectful actions not specifically addressed to someone under the control of the offender (as in an employer to an employee or teacher to class or judge to defendant) … trying to spread it around in order to humiliate the person is unwarranted. > > Person in line calls me a kike\* and states that Jews control the banks and the media and were the force actually behind the twin towers collapse? Someone records it. Putting it out on the local news, asking for people to identify the person, who to the best of my knowledge is a no one, creating a circumstance in which others will work to getting that person fired from whatever his or her job is maybe? Wrong for me to do, wrong for an observer to do, if done wrong for me to help spread the video, and wrong for me to join the chorus wishing for harms to befall upon that person. > > \*Have I been called a kike in my life? Yes. Specifically a “jew boy kike” … I was younger and speech response unfortunately escalated, happy and surprised I was to leave the circumstance unscathed … but even his bloody nose, and self-defense I swear, is small compared to the loss of job and hope for ghosting that is wished for by our op on those who she believes deserve “shaming.” Depending on the particulars, my motivation would most likely be “folks, racism and bigotry are still significant factors in our society, and here is an example. This isn’t okay, and it isn’t something we need to tolerate. Don’t allow your friends, neighbors, employees, employers, etc., say and do racist and bigoted things in public without consequences – call it out in the moment; if you don’t/can’t do that, call it out after the moment. Make it clear to the bad actor that this is disgusting behavior.” Something like that. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/255 "2017-05-11T12:02:19Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I said I would not shed a tear. Not that I would be “okay”. Just in case you don’t know, these expressions are not equivalent. > > Are you saying you would shed a tear … > … You seem to think I’m a fan of all flavors of internet shaming. I’m not. “I would shed zero tears for someone who … [had X happen because of someone doing Y]” and “I would completely okay with X happening to someone because they did Y.” are in fact equivalent statements. I would in fact shed a proverbial tear for (“give a shit about”, “not be okay with” “have some sympathy for” …) the typical, archetypal “internet shamer” (to the degree of someone going on the offender’s FB page to say “for shame” or even “you are scum” and such) losing their job for having engaged in that activity on their own time, even though that is clearly “harrassing anyone at any frequency.” Do I have enough imagination to create exceptions to that, to imagine people who are far from that archetypal case? Of course. I only have a thought about you being a fan of the flavors of internet shaming that you have specifically defended and endorsed in this thread. The kind of internet shaming that is someone seeing a clip of someone who they do not know anything else about doing what seems to be (and probably most often is) an egregious behavior and responds by spreading it as wide and far as possible, often with expressions of things like “I hope she gets fired from her job.” out of a belief that doing so “helps to keep people from acting shamefully” because “that’s really all that matters”. The kind of internet shamer who is not too upset that they are joining a crowd that also has those who wish things more horrible than job loss upon the otherwise unknown person in the clip, sometimes with apparent threats, who minimally reads those things and does not post “not cool” and who is helping in their small way to create the circumstance that makes those threats happen. The kind who wants to join the group meting out punishment via internet justice with that system’s “process” of deciding guilt and context and possible mitigating factors and proportionate response known and accepted. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/256 "2017-05-11T14:14:55Z")
I cannot join you guys in the blanket condemnations. I agree with the idea that people shouldn’t go out of their way to make trouble for someone, even jerks. But condemning the very natural and useful communication that occurs when someone has been harmed by someone else’s speech…based on the belief that such communication can lead to someone getting firing? This just isn’t reasonable. If someone is messing with me, I am going to tell someone. I am not going to keep my anger, fear, and sadness a secret just because there is a non-zero probability that something “disproportionate” will occur if I dare to open my mouth. I cannot believe that people really think it is okay to side with bullies no matter what. I refuse to believe this, because otherwise it would mean that people have an inability to judge good behavior from bad. I dont think most people are that stupid. So I dont think some of yall are arguing honestly. ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/257 "2017-05-11T15:48:22Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > The thing is, I have a complicated relationship with the concept of “free speech”, and by American standards I don’t really support it. Would you be willing to let us know which flavor of fascism you support? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/258 "2017-05-11T16:20:39Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I cannot join you guys in the blanket condemnations. I agree with the idea that people shouldn’t go out of their way to make trouble for someone, even jerks. But condemning the very natural and useful communication that occurs when someone has been harmed by someone else’s speech…based on the belief that such communication can lead to someone getting firing? This just isn’t reasonable. If someone is messing with me, I am going to tell someone. I am not going to keep my anger, fear, and sadness a secret just because there is a non-zero probability that something “disproportionate” will occur if I dare to open my mouth. > > I cannot believe that people really think it is okay to side with bullies no matter what. I refuse to believe this, because otherwise it would mean that people have an inability to judge good behavior from bad. I dont think most people are that stupid. So I dont think some of yall are arguing honestly. I’m not reading many “blanket condemnations” here, certainly no more than “blanket endorsements.” More “in general” and "some people"s. Oh some attempt to pigeonhole lack of endorsement into absolutist statements fer sure. (Yes, _some_ not arguing honestly perhaps.) Glad that we can agree that “people shouldn’t go out of their way to make trouble for someone, even jerks”. “Telling someone” about someone messing with you and venting about it is not the same as attempting to spread as wide and as far as possible in the hope that doing such will result in harms to come to the target individual, let alone the same as joining in on such an effort aimed at a target initiated by others. “Non-zero probability” is not the same as “reasonably high likelihood of and the desired outcome of .” I think you know that. Indeed I for one do not think it is desirable side with bullies, even when I agree that the target of their bullying is being a jerk or has been a bully themselves. (Just like I believe in the free speech to say that which I do not want to hear). I think we need to appropriately stand up to bullies, _including in those circumstances_, when the victim is very unsympathetic and the bullies those who I generally agree with. You think being part of an internet crowd attacking someone you know only so far as one clip online, calling for harms to occur to them, is standing up to bullying and some of the rest of us see the in general case of internet shaming _as bullying_. We heartily endorse the more scary standing up to bullying when witnessed, in real life, and even online en masse when it is in response to someone abusing a large soapbox and/or with great power against those powerless to adequately defend themselves. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/259 "2017-05-11T19:10:43Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I cannot join you guys in the blanket condemnations. I agree with the idea that people shouldn’t go out of their way to make trouble for someone, even jerks. But condemning the very natural and useful communication that occurs when someone has been harmed by someone else’s speech…based on the belief that such communication can lead to someone getting firing? This just isn’t reasonable. If someone is messing with me, I am going to tell someone. I am not going to keep my anger, fear, and sadness a secret just because there is a non-zero probability that something “disproportionate” will occur if I dare to open my mouth. > > I cannot believe that people really think it is okay to side with bullies no matter what. I refuse to believe this, because otherwise it would mean that people have an inability to judge good behavior from bad. I dont think most people are that stupid. So I dont think some of yall are arguing honestly. Telling your bestie and rounding up an internet lynch mob are vastly different acts. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/260 "2017-05-11T19:27:57Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Telling your bestie and rounding up an internet lynch mob are vastly different acts. But I bet most of these incidents were somewhere in the middle – posting on FB, saying “this is terrible!”, and then it gaining prominence from there, or similar. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082.md?page=14)