# Is internet shaming a good way to combat racism and bigotry? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 7, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082 "2017-05-07T19:39:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/141 "2017-05-09T13:56:40Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > But isn’t the “point” of this kind of shaming to address public displays of racism, and not any underlying beliefs/behavior patterns that remain invisible? If the object is to discourage people from being outwardly racist, **then poking people enough or in just the right way to bring forth a racist response is completely counterproductive.** So are we now seriously entertaining the idea that people are being \*provoked \*into acting like racist assclowns? Since it was brought up earlier, let’s talk about the guy who yelled “[FHITP](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwip_afe-eLTAhVE6CYKHeluC7YQFggpMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.nationalpost.com%2Fnews%2Fcanada%2Fcanadian-politics%2Fhydro-one-employee-fired-over-sexual-harassment-of-a-reporter-has-been-rehired&usg=AFQjCNFJjT3cVnABW6uJPeQ-S_sm9jSVyg&sig2=gwA9oJInpa16jVkof2gjSg)” and ended up fired from his job. If were the mother of an impulsive teenaged son with an embarrassing mouth problem, I would definitely be using what happened to that guy as a handy teaching moment. Just like I would if we were talking about a neighbor who was arrested for shop lifting, or the friend of a friend who got expelled from school for vandalism. “You don’t wanna end up like them, do ya?! Okay, so get your head on straight and act like you’ve got some home training then.” Believe it or not, people _do_ learn from seeing what consequences come to those who deviate from socially acceptable behavior. It’s why most people don’t audibly fart and pick their nose in public, but often do so at home. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/142 "2017-05-09T15:35:30Z")
Scenarios I would welcome full court press internet shaming. In each case, the video recording is so crystal clear, so there is no denying that what we see is what’s actually what transpired: 1. A person camping out in front of their neighbor’s home every morning so that they call the kids “little abortions” when they leave to go to school. They do this every day, rain or shine, and the police can’t do anything because the guy isn’t breaking any laws. 2. A person who shows up to the same place of business every day just to scream racial epithets at the customers that enter the building. The person stands on the sidewalk, so they can’t be accused of trespassing. The business owner knows the person is a relative of a competitor. 3. A person who follows a black customer in an upscale department store, demanding to know what a “nigger” could possibly be doing in such a place. The target is visibly scared and upset, but the person keeps pestering, as if trying to provoke a violent response. In all these scenarios, only a fool would deny that there isn’t harrassment occurring. It is all perfectly legal, too, but it nonetheless induces harm. Explain to me again why these people shouldn’t have their faces broadcast out in public, so that others may be informed about the creeps in their midst? Sorry, but “their feelings will be hurt!” isn’t a very compelling argument since _they are hurting other people’s feelings_. “It’s not going to make anything better!” isn’t a convincing argument either, especially since simply having others pay attention to a problem and express sympathy and outrage can be therapeutic. And I’m seriously doubting that if a community was alerted to the likes of Number One, no one would rush to the victims’ side and provide moral support (like escorting the kids to school). “No one should lose their job over their free speech!” is just a ludicrous argument. If you wouldn’t hire Number Two if you knew that’s how he spent his free time, why woud it be so wrong for you to fire him? “Shaming can get out of hand!” ignores the fact that so can harrassment. If Number Three isn’t afraid that his target won’t hit him upside the head with her purse, then why should the public be afraid that someone else will hit him upside the head? As far as the lady in the OP goes, her name is still unknown AFAIK. I’m guessing she still has her job (iif she has one), and no one but perhaps her closest neighbors and associates are pointing and laughing at her. Big whoop. That sounds like a pretty small price to pay for mouthing off to a complete stranger for no reason. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/143 "2017-05-09T15:50:18Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > What happens to all the racists who lose their jobs and friends? Are they just going to be wandering the streets like hordes of feral cats? > > I ask this semi-seriously. There are a lot of racists (for varying degrees of racism). A lot. You can say, “I don’t give a fuck about what happens to them,” but the thing is, they’ll still be there. It’s not about their pwecious feewings, it’s a practical question about the fact that your neighborhood is now comprised some percentage of unemployed, maybe on the dole, maybe homeless people and their children. The story doesn’t end after we get our kicks and vent some anger. If we want to pretend that this kind of ostracism is serving a social good, then we need to look at it holistically. And I just don’t see how putting barriers up to employment and social and civic participation for large portions of the population would be a net benefit. I don’t think us pro-criticism folks care about thoughts – we care about actions. If someone acts like a racist in their basement, without anyone else being affected, we don’t care. We’re not going to search out those folks. But if someone says something racist to a customer at their workplace? Or a co-worker? Or on public transit? Or yells something as they drive by on a public street? Then we think it’s reasonable to record it and criticize and call them out. They have the freedom to do it, and bystanders have the freedom to record it and to tell others about it. ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/144 "2017-05-09T16:13:32Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > See how a "consequences " for \*\*freedom of speech \*\*quickly degenerates into abuse? I don’t really think you should suffer due to your writings, speech, or beliefs. I do think there is value in pointing out that the mob and its standards of acceptable discourse are not a controllable phenomenon. This is not a first amendment issue. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/145 "2017-05-09T16:35:51Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > So are we now seriously entertaining the idea that people are being \*provoked \*into acting like racist assclowns? I don’t know what “we” are doing. I was responding to a specific assertion that if there is any way that you will do or say a racist thing, then you are therefore racist, and therefore losing your job and friends is somehow something you deserve. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/146 "2017-05-09T16:36:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So what? Whatever she hopes is the result, what she’s advocating for is the same as me - public criticism and calling out of bad behavior. > > Again, is any behavior bad enough to warrant calling out publicly? I say yes. That doesn’t mean every instance, but it does mean some of them. “Is any behavior” is a moving of the goal posts. Some behavior sure. Some random rant? No. And you are conveniently forgetting or are just ignorant of what public shaming gone viral can do. > [@monstro](#): > > You know, we’ve been public shaming people for a long time. Just watching the local news this morning, I saw about three or four different mug shots. And gasp! Their names were even mentioned! > > I’m guessing if these people were to lose their jobs or their friends, the majority of the LEAVE THE RACISTS ALONE! camp would shrug their shoulders. Even though the suspects alleged offenses have yet to be proven in a court of law. > > I’m wondering if someone might care to explain why broadcasting mugshots is okay, but releasing uncensored video of someone being severely harrassed isn’t. > > Every person over a certain age knows that wishing something doesn’t make it happen. > > Personally, while I might think you are an asshat for wishing harm on me, I’m not going to sit here and pretend that you aren’t entitled to wish whatever you want. However, if you get in my face and say those words to my face and someone just happens to be recording you, you don’t get to turn around and cry “NO FAIR!” No one forced you to be a jackass to a random stranger. Presumably you have the ability to control yourself. Free speech does not entitle you to a consequence-free existence. If you don’t understand these basic principles, your employer has every right to question whether you’re a good fit for his or her organization. > > All this special pleading about jobs is making my head spin. Are you seriously suggesting that someone would be in the wrong for recording a workplace bully and presenting the evidence to their supervisor so that the bully can be fired? Find me the amendment that entitles people to a job. Mugshots for criminals and a workplace bully are different. What you and others don’t realize is that the internet has magnified the outrage and in many cases in an arbitrary fashion. You said lose her job for a few years. That’s messed up. > [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#): > > This is not a first amendment issue. Thanks for the civics lesson. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/147 "2017-05-09T16:39:53Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > What happens to all the racists who lose their jobs and friends? Are they just going to be wandering the streets like hordes of feral cats? > > I ask this semi-seriously. There are a lot of racists (for varying degrees of racism). A lot. You can say, “I don’t give a fuck about what happens to them,” but the thing is, they’ll still be there. It’s not about their pwecious feewings, it’s a practical question about the fact that your neighborhood is now comprised some percentage of unemployed, maybe on the dole, maybe homeless people and their children. The story doesn’t end after we get our kicks and vent some anger. If we want to pretend that this kind of ostracism is serving a social good, then we need to look at it holistically. And I just don’t see how putting barriers up to employment and social and civic participation for large portions of the population would be a net benefit. A permanent underclass of thought criminals doesn’t seem like a good idea? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/148 "2017-05-09T16:42:37Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > I don’t know what “we” are doing. I was responding to a specific assertion that if there is any way that you will do or say a racist thing, then you are therefore racist, and therefore losing your job and friends is somehow something you deserve. Do you dispute the idea that throwing racist tirades is an indicator someone is racist? Because I believe that was what type of speech being referred to. Regardless of your answer to the question above, do you have a philosophical problem with employers choosing not to employ people who throw racist tirades? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/149 "2017-05-09T16:43:35Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > “Is any behavior” is a moving of the goal posts. Some behavior sure. Some random rant? No. So then we quibble about what qualifies as bad enough behavior to warrant calling out publicly. We might disagree on some specific instances, but then it’s probably not a particularly wide difference in philosophy – just in the particulars. > [@](#): > > And you are conveniently forgetting or are just ignorant of what public shaming gone viral can do. Calling out publicly (which sometimes leads to public shaming) is a tool, and like any tool it can be used well and used poorly. But if someone’s behavior is bad enough that their employer no longer wants to employ them (whether for moral reasons or because they feel their presence now harms the business), that’s the fault of the bad actor, not someone who publicly called out the bad behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/150 "2017-05-09T16:45:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t think us pro-criticism folks care about thoughts – we care about actions. If someone acts like a racist in their basement, without anyone else being affected, we don’t care. We’re not going to search out those folks. > > But if someone says something racist to a customer at their workplace? Or a co-worker? Or on public transit? Or yells something as they drive by on a public street? Then we think it’s reasonable to record it and criticize and call them out. They have the freedom to do it, and bystanders have the freedom to record it and to tell others about it. So play it out then. Do you think they ought to lose their jobs? Their friends? That encouraging those outcomes is a net positive? Then I want to know what you imagine happens next. To be clear, I think someone yelling something racist to a customer, etc etc, is a bad thing, and that there should be socially-imposed consequences. I just don’t think that nationally and permanently assigning notoriety to and hobbling all future successes of the offenders in perpetuity is a good way to get things done. It feels a lot like death penalty advocacy to me: any small degree of social good that might exist in a well-run state execution program is impossible to ferret out as those benefits are always extolled by those who clearly have an emotional/ethical investment in hurting evil people that trumps any true evaluation of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/151 "2017-05-09T16:51:41Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Do you dispute the idea that throwing racist tirades is an indicator someone is racist? Because I believe that was what type of speech being referred to. Nope. But let me repeat myself, bolding the part that is actually relevant: was responding to a specific assertion that if there is any way that you will do or say a racist thing, then you are therefore racist, **and therefore losing your job and friends is somehow something you deserve**. > [@](#): > > Regardless of your answer to the question above, do you have a philosophical problem with employers choosing not to employ people who throw racist tirades? Nope. I think it’s great. But I also think that advocating for turning assholes or racists into unemployable pariahs is not a reasonable solution to the problem of assholes or racists in society. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/152 "2017-05-09T16:58:40Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > So play it out then. Do you think they ought to lose their jobs? Their friends? That encouraging those outcomes is a net positive? Then I want to know what you imagine happens next. I don’t know, and I don’t particularly care – I know that I wouldn’t want to be friends with such a person, and if I ran a business, I would fire such a person. Barring a sincere apology and desire to change, at least (see below). Others may feel differently. > [@](#): > > To be clear, I think someone yelling something racist to a customer, etc etc, is a bad thing, and that there should be socially-imposed consequences. I just don’t think that nationally and permanently assigning notoriety to and hobbling all future successes of the offenders in perpetuity is a good way to get things done. It feels a lot like death penalty advocacy to me: any small degree of social good that might exist in a well-run state execution program is impossible to ferret out as those benefits are always extolled by those who clearly have an emotional/ethical investment in hurting evil people that trumps any true evaluation of the situation. One thing that’s missing from this discussion is the response from the target of the criticism. An oft-cited example (for sexism, not racism) is the European space scientist who wore a shirt with imagery many found objectifying of women in a press conference about a robotic space agency mission. He received a lot of harsh criticism about his choice of shirt. But what happened next? _He gave a very sincere apology_. And the critics almost uniformly accepted his apology and praised him personally, noting that mistakes are possible and should be criticized, but individuals can and should learn from these mistakes, and when they do, they should be praised for it. _That was a very good outcome from public criticism_. Feelings were made public, the target responded sincerely and expressed contrition, and lots of opportunities for learning were made. No one was fired. If someone goes on a racist rant in public and then gives a very sincere apology, acknowledging the harm and the wrongness of their statements (and a desire to change), I think they’ll get a positive and welcoming response. Lots of people with racist beliefs (most of them, probably) don’t realize that their beliefs are racist. Racists can reform, and many do. Public criticism could be the spark for some of them to re-examine their beliefs, as it was for that European space scientist. And with a decent response, the harm they’ll experience professionally won’t be as long-lasting. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/153 "2017-05-09T17:23:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t know, and I don’t particularly care – I know that I wouldn’t want to be friends with such a person, and if I ran a business, I would fire such a person. Wow. That right there is some serious egocentrism. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/154 "2017-05-09T17:27:01Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Wow. That right there is some serious egocentrism. What part? You’d want to be friends with people who say racist things in public? You’d want to employ them? And you left out my next sentence – “Barring a sincere apology and desire to change”. If your standards for friendship and employment are different than mine, then why are mine “egocentric”? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/155 "2017-05-09T17:53:10Z")
“National and permanent notoriety”. I’m scratching my head, trying to think of examples of a private citizen who has been shamed to this level. And the only one I can think of is Rachel Dolezal. But that’s because the woman doubled-down after she was exposed. If she had confessed to her lies and distortions immediately, no one would know her name. I’m wondering why no one has weighed in on my hypotheticals. I can kinda-sorta get why the lady in the OP’s level of offensiveness may not trigger the “outrage” meter for your typical Doper, given the typical Doper’s sensitivities (or lack thereof). But surely we can all imagine a scenario that would be triggering. Is it really the consensus that no matter what the situation, if someone is harrassing you, you should keep the situation private, because talking about it might bring shame on that person and get them in trouble? Because that’s insane to me. I can’t believe that’s really what Dopers sincerely believe. That’s not what’s being said, you say? To my ear, yes it is. Because even if a story doesn’t circulate online, it can still find its way to a person’s employer if the right people hear about it. And a lot of you seem to think having an employer know what’s going on is the worst crime in the universe. A person can harrass you and your family and your friends cuz it’s his God-given right to harrass whomever he wants. But laws no, don’t fire him! He’s apparently also entitled to a job! And laws no, don’t pass around his image. Because someone may point and laugh at him and hurt his feelings. And laws no, don’t you say dare say a bad word about him! Because he might overhear you, which will just make him hate even more. If you do any of these things, you’re just as bad as the Massachusetts Bay Colony. I was expecting more reasonable responses. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/156 "2017-05-09T17:56:27Z")
**monstro** , I agreed with your take on the hypotheticals you mentioned, which was why I didn’t respond. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/157 "2017-05-09T18:49:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So then we quibble about what qualifies as bad enough behavior to warrant calling out publicly. We might disagree on some specific instances, but then it’s probably not a particularly wide difference in philosophy – just in the particulars. > > Calling out publicly (which sometimes leads to public shaming) is a tool, and like any tool it can be used well and used poorly. But if someone’s behavior is bad enough that their employer no longer wants to employ them (whether for moral reasons or because they feel their presence now harms the business), that’s the fault of the bad actor, not someone who publicly called out the bad behavior. Let’s put it this way iiandyiiii, would you hire a rapist or a murderer or a thief who has been released from prison? If you wouldn’t personally should anyone hire them? How about someone convicted for arson, assault, or something else? Should those people be wards of the state for the rest of their lives? Should they be dependent on private charity? Ok. If we can accept that criminals ought to be able to earn a living and maybe even have a friend why can’t we accept that some random person ranting and raving on the street doesn’t deserve to lose her job, all of her friends, and all that she owns because someone’s outrage-o-meter went off? Secondly, we have the issue that people are damn right nutty, no offense to nuts, with their partisanship nowadays. Trump supporter? You must be a closet racist, misogynist, bigot, etc-o-phobe. That deplorable should be fired or ostracized. What if you are a member of a religion that has a holy text that says certain sexual practices are abhorrent? If you believe that or support that why should you have a job? What if you don’t support a position strongly enough? That lack of support and money should be shamed! At some point we have a mob based totalitarian society. People getting their heads cracked with bicycle locks due to political differences is where this inability to act as an adult leads. ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/158 "2017-05-09T18:51:49Z")
One problem with internet shaming is there’s no way to control the dosage or the purpose of the remedy. It may simply be a slow week for a lot of people. The victim may seem particularly sympathetic. The “bigot” may trigger bigotries of our own by being old or unkempt or fat or saddled with a certain accent or vernacular. They may even be or seem to be a member of a recognizable minority themselves. And what kind of crowd do you think will be jumping on _that_ bandwagon? Shaming just seems less just and effective when the shamers are into it for reasons that reflect their own pathologies more than a preference for a better world. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/159 "2017-05-09T18:52:23Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > “National and permanent notoriety”. I’m scratching my head, trying to think of examples of a private citizen who has been shamed to this level. > > And the only one I can think of is Rachel Dolezal. But that’s because the woman doubled-down after she was exposed. If she had confessed to her lies and distortions immediately, no one would know her name. > > I’m wondering why no one has weighed in on my hypotheticals. I can kinda-sorta get why the lady in the OP’s level of offensiveness may not trigger the “outrage” meter for your typical Doper, given the typical Doper’s sensitivities (or lack thereof). But surely we can all imagine a scenario that would be triggering. Is it really the consensus that no matter what the situation, if someone is harrassing you, you should keep the situation private, because talking about it might bring shame on that person and get them in trouble? Because that’s insane to me. I can’t believe that’s really what Dopers sincerely believe. > > That’s not what’s being said, you say? To my ear, yes it is. Because even if a story doesn’t circulate online, it can still find its way to a person’s employer if the right people hear about it. And a lot of you seem to think having an employer know what’s going on is the worst crime in the universe. A person can harrass you and your family and your friends cuz it’s his God-given right to harrass whomever he wants. But laws no, don’t fire him! He’s apparently also entitled to a job! And laws no, don’t pass around his image. Because someone may point and laugh at him and hurt his feelings. And laws no, don’t you say dare say a bad word about him! Because he might overhear you, which will just make him hate even more. If you do any of these things, you’re just as bad as the Massachusetts Bay Colony. > > I was expecting more reasonable responses. Well, that’s not what your OP was. Your OP was wishing the consequences included losing her job for a few years and losing all her friends. That’s completely different than hurt feelings. Perhaps my upbringing has influenced my desire for things to be let go and the past to be the past. I grew up in a diverse neighborhood. Some ethnic tension. I had friends of all sorts of ethnic or racial or whatever you want to call it background and sometimes words, even racially charged words would be exchanged, fists might fly for a few minutes. Then it was back to being friends and getting on with the day. Honestly, this quest for Cosmic Justice!!! is tiresome. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082/160 "2017-05-09T18:53:48Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > It seems to me that commenters are falling into three camps: > > 1. The LEAVE RACISTS/BIGOTS ALONE! Camp. They don’t advocate shaming of these individuals for at least one of the following reasons: > > - Shaming hurts the shame-ee’s feelings and makes them even bigger bigots. > > -People shouldn’t be shamed for anything because moral relativism. There is no good or bad, offensive or not offensive, rude or not rude. What gives anyone the right to judge anyone for anything? Racist/bigoted speech aren’t any different than any other speech. > > My response to this position: Hogwash. I am not a fan of shaming someone over every little offense. But I do think ass-showers invite derision and ridicule when they do the ass-showing out in public. I also am skeptical about this claim that shame is never effective at curtailing behavior. > 2. The SHAMING SHOULD BE PRIVATE Camp. This group isn’t against shaming as long as it is a one-on-one activity. The woman recording the video had the right to shame the bully, since she was the target. But she should have shamed her right then and there in the grocery store, and not put the encounter out on Facebook for others to see. Or if she really had to go this route, she should have censored the bigot’s face. At least one of the following justifies this position: > > -Public shaming can result in bad things like unemployment and loss of friends. No one deserves to lose their job or be lonely, not even bigots. > > -Public shaming can escalate to illegal acts, like death threats and violence. > > -Public shaming is the cowardly way of handling breaches of decorum. Real heroes stand up to their bullies in real time and don’t hide behind a camera. > > -Public shaming may not even be warranted. Once the video is out there for everyone to gawk at, the outrage can snowball until the thing is thrown way out of proportion. So it’s better not to even take the risk. > > My personal comment to this position: I think it is reasonable to keep things private for everyday acts of douchebaggery and assholery. I think it would be wrong to public shame someone for a microaggression, like asking a tone-deaf question about someone’s ethnicity/religion or telling an off-color ethic joke. In these kind of situations, you should do what you can to shame the person right in the moment, without escalating it to the “masses”. However, I don’t think the “masses” care about piddly stuff anyway. If I were to leak video footage of one of my coworkers speaking fake Ebonics, I really doubt the video would go “viral”. Public shaming only works if there’s a critical mass of people who are outraged. So I’m not too worried about the slippery slope concerns. > > But I disagree that all shaming must be done private. > > 1. The PUBLIC SHAMING IS A USEFUL TOOL Camp. This group believes that public shame shouldn’t be off-limits when the etiquette breach is flagrant and severe. This position is justified by the following reasons: > > -Shaming, whether public or private, is effective at curtailing an individual’s bad behavior. > > -Public shaming is effective at deterring bad behavior in the population in general. > > -Public shaming also informs people that there is problem. If the woman targeted by the Trader’s Joe bully had told her friends about what had happened to her but didn’t have any “proof”, some/most of her friends probably wouldn’t have believed her, especially if her friends aren’t Muslim. Audio/video evidence of racism/bigotry is much more compelling. (To be fair, she could blocked out the lady’s face and still achieved this aim.) I think there are two more positions: 4) Someone can be wrongfully accused. Things can be shown out of context, quoted out of context, or the wrong person videotaped, and cause an innocent person to get their life ruined. 1. There are two sides to the sword. Internet vigilantism may feel good when it’s against a racist or sexist, but it’s not so good when it comes in the form of doxxing or 4chan-like harassment like in Gamergate, etc. The same Internet vigilantism that is used to shame a Klansman, can be used to harass a feminist or Muslim or lesbian. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-internet-shaming-a-good-way-to-combat-racism-and-bigotry/786082.md?page=9)