# Is Ireland still sorry that Hitler is dead? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060 "2009-07-24T00:00:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/41 "2009-07-27T05:50:23Z")
The notion of “withdrawing condolences” seems radically childish, even in the case of Hitler. “Hey guys, remember when we said we sent our condolences for the death of Soandso? Well we’re taking them back, because he was a jackass, and we’re glad he died. Have a nice day.” ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/42 "2009-07-27T06:47:28Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Ah, so you think the emperor even had power before the end of the war. Well, he was the one who finally decided to end it, right? Despite the military wanting to carry om fighting until they all had died ‘honorably’. Even after that, some hotheads in the military tried to steal the recording of his surrender speech before it could be broadcast to the public – they knew that the public would surrender once they heard the emperor announce it. Isn’t that power? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/43 "2009-07-27T09:42:43Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > I don’t see this. Most of the convoys went through the North Atlantic, and Ireland is to the south of Britain. Eh, no, France is to the south of Britain. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/44 "2009-07-27T10:15:07Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > One day, people will finally realize that I know the difference and that I mean what I say every time I say it. It was the English that dominate Britain and the English whom the Irish generally despised. It sure as hell wasn’t the great nonexistent hatred of the Welsh that kept Ireland out of the war. If you know the difference then why did you get it wrong? Or do you have proof that there were no Welsh or Scots involved, at any level, in the British domination of Ireland? No politicians, no civil servants, no top ranks in the army, no regiments? All the people involved were English? That somehow all 7 million people stayed out of the whole thing? If you pursue this idea that since England numerically dominates the UK you can use “England” when describing the actions of the UK, then unless you deploy sophistry you will end up saying things like: the Clydeside Blitz was an attack on England, or that lots of Welsh soldiers died re-taking the Falklands for England. Not only are these statements factually wrong, and misleading for anyone learning about the topic, they are deeply offensive. Some Irish people use the term “England”, when they mean “Great Britain” - I have personal experience of someone from Kerry who thought that Edinburgh was in England. So when Irish people talk about “the English” you should not always take it at face value. Do you seriously imagine that anti-Irish prejudice is confined to England? Do you think there were no Scots eagerly involved in the Black and Tans? Do you think that Llyod George, the Prime Minister throughout the Irish War of Independence and partition was English? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/45 "2009-07-27T10:23:47Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > I don’t see this. Most of the convoys went through the North Atlantic, and Ireland is to the south of Britain. The Shetland islands, Iceland, & Greenland were all more important bases than Ireland would have been. Looked at a [map](http://www.yourchildlearns.com/online-atlas/continent/images/british-isles.gif) recently? Ireland is to the _west_ of Great Britain. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Puhleeze. :rolleyes What’s this about? “English” is incorrect. The nationality of citizens (or subjects as they were then) of the UK (the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) is “British”. Saying “English” is flat wrong, and historically inaccurate too. > [@G. Odoreida](#): > > Some Irish people use the term “England”, when they mean “Great Britain” - I have personal experience of someone from Kerry who thought that Edinburgh was in England. So when Irish people talk about “the English” you should not always take it at face value. Sometimes it’s the other way round: I had a cabbie in Dublin tell me that “Scotland are playing the Brits” at football. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/46 "2009-07-27T10:37:23Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > Looked at a [map](http://www.yourchildlearns.com/online-atlas/continent/images/british-isles.gif) recently? Ireland is to the _west_ of Great Britain. I like your cite, dude. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/47 "2009-07-27T10:53:23Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > I don’t see this. Most of the convoys went through the North Atlantic, and Ireland is to the south of Britain. The Shetland islands, Iceland, & Greenland were all more important bases than Ireland would have been. As already said, Ireland is to the West of GB. RAF Castle Archadale was the most Westerly RAF base in the UK. If it was so unimportant, why go to the bother of hassling the Irish government over the matter? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/48 "2009-07-27T12:01:09Z")
Dunno why people think the demand for the Treaty Ports and bases was insignificant. While subsequently the Allies may have come up with ways to bolster alternative and less convenient routes, the desire to use them remained for most of the war. [‘Defending Ireland’ - Oxford University Press](http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=S6KjQbEBFigC&lpg=PA181&ots=N9MEWxztns&dq=%22now%20is%20your%20chance.%20Now%20or%20never%22&pg=PA181): > [@](#): > > Germany’s declaration of war against the United States on 10 December 1941 brought a new complication. Irish hopes that America would act as a guarantor of neutrality had already been shaken by Roosevelt’s undisguised hostility; now the United States was in the war, and so had an even more direct interest than hitherto in securing Britain’s Atlantic supply routes. America’s entry was the occasion of Churchill’s enigmatic telegram to de Valera ‘Now is your chance. Now or never. A nation once again.’ And though “…the likelihood was never very great, for a combination of political and military factors…” > [@](#): > > An outright demand for naval and air facilities under pain of force, a course repeatedly pressed by David Gray, the American minister in Dublin, remained a possibility until the invasion of France in 1944. Seems a fairly undiplomatic stance for something supposedly trivial. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/49 "2009-07-27T16:36:46Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > .What’s this about? “English” is incorrect. The nationality of citizens (or subjects as they were then) of the UK (the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) is “British”. Saying “English” is flat wrong, and historically inaccurate too.. I’ll accept “British” as a correction for “English” (if we aren’t talking just about Olde England area) but fuckall if I’ll say or type out “United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland” everytime I want to refer to that nation= "\*Finally; its not “English” its the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. \*) ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/50 "2009-07-27T16:40:11Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > The notion of “withdrawing condolences” seems radically childish, even in the case of Hitler. > > “Hey guys, remember when we said we sent our condolences for the death of Soandso? Well we’re taking them back, because he was a jackass, and we’re glad he died. Have a nice day.” It reminds me of this _All In The Family_ episode, where Archie want’s Mike to baptize Joey, his grandson Archie) Well you were baptized Mike) I renounced that years ago Archie) [scoffs] Oh, ho, buddy, renounce your belly button, you still got it 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/51 "2009-07-27T16:46:17Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I’ll accept “British” as a correction for “English” (if we aren’t talking just about Olde England area) but fuckall if I’ll say or type out “United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland” everytime I want to refer to that nation= "\*Finally; its not “English” its the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. \*) Ah, now I understand your gripe. Yeah, the country is more conveniently “the UK” and the nationality is “British”. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/52 "2009-07-27T16:49:05Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > What’s this about? “English” is incorrect. The nationality of citizens (or subjects as they were then) of the UK (the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) is “British”. Saying “English” is flat wrong, and historically inaccurate too. It’s called synecdoche, when you use part of something to refer to the entire thing. So, sometimes, when people are talking about WWII, people talk about the actions of the “English” when they mean the actions of the US, or of the “Russians”, when they mean the actions of the Soviet Union. It’s not generally done with the intention of being offensive. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/53 "2009-07-27T16:50:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I’ll accept “British” as a correction for “English” (if we aren’t talking just about Olde England area) but fuckall if I’ll say or type out “United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland” everytime I want to refer to that nation= "\*Finally; its not “English” its the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. \*) You were whooshed by the AK84 post that you quoted. AK84 was using sarcasm to express the irritation many of us feel when “England” is used instead of “the UK”, and to demonstrate how inaccurate the usage is. At risk of putting words in AK84’s mouth, he or she was asking people to say “the UK” when that is the nation-state to which they are referring. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/54 "2009-07-27T16:53:32Z")
> [@G. Odoreida](#): > > You were whooshed by the AK84 post that you quoted. AK84 was using sarcasm to express the irritation many of us feel when “England” is used instead of “the UK”, and to demonstrate how inaccurate the usage is. At risk of putting words in AK84’s mouth, he or she was asking people to say “the UK” when that is the nation-state to which they are referring. Or, maybe you were all “whooshed” by my reply. Or perhaps he was being that literal. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/55 "2009-07-27T16:54:42Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It’s called synecdoche, when you use part of something to refer to the entire thing. So, sometimes, when people are talking about WWII, people talk about the actions of the “English” when they mean the actions of the US, or of the “Russians”, when they mean the actions of the Soviet Union. It’s not generally done with the intention of being offensive. Having a special word for something does not make it justifiable. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/56 "2009-07-27T17:13:24Z")
> [@G. Odoreida](#): > > If you know the difference then why did you get it wrong? Or do you have proof that there were no Welsh or Scots involved, at any level, in the British domination of Ireland? No politicians, no civil servants, no top ranks in the army, no regiments? All the people involved were English? That somehow all 7 million people stayed out of the whole thing? > > If you pursue this idea that since England numerically dominates the UK you can use “England” when describing the actions of the UK, then unless you deploy sophistry you will end up saying things like: the Clydeside Blitz was an attack on England, or that lots of Welsh soldiers died re-taking the Falklands for England. Not only are these statements factually wrong, and misleading for anyone learning about the topic, they are deeply offensive. > > Some Irish people use the term “England”, when they mean “Great Britain” - I have personal experience of someone from Kerry who thought that Edinburgh was in England. So when Irish people talk about “the English” you should not always take it at face value. > > Do you seriously imagine that anti-Irish prejudice is confined to England? Do you think there were no Scots eagerly involved in the Black and Tans? Do you think that Llyod George, the Prime Minister throughout the Irish War of Independence and partition was English? I love it when people prove my very same point and don’t realize it. The cross-channel anger was directed at the English. I said (well, strongly and deliberately implied) that the Irish didn’t want the English on their turf. That is all I said, and I did so deliberately, and it was specifically the English part that they objected to most. I did _not_ say their belief was reasonable, proper, or fully in keeping with the weird inter-national relationships which make up Britain. I say it was a real belief, and nothing more. Seriously stop being a fool, and read what I wrote for what I actually wrote down. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/57 "2009-07-27T17:44:23Z")
So those Scots who were planted in Ulster and in Munster by James VI/I (a scot) are not hated? Or their decendents? You know Ian Paisely’s background is Scottish. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/58 "2009-07-27T17:48:35Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > read what I wrote for what I actually wrote down Ok. > [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Hell no. That would have taken America right out of the war against Germany, and the English knew it. In fact, if it weren’t the English who wanted to be stationed in Ireland, it probably wouldn’t have been an issue, although the infant Irish state also generally didn’t want to make themselves a target, either. What exactly do you mean by the first “English” here? I can’t see how it could meaningfully or relevantly refer to anything other than the UK government and armed forces, which comprised of more than just English people. > [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I said (well, strongly and deliberately implied) that the Irish didn’t want the English on their turf. That is all I said, and I did so deliberately, and it was specifically the English part that they objected to most. No, that is not all you said. As I have just shown, you used “the English” as an active noun when you apparently meant “the UK”, and then you tried to justify it when AK84 pulled you up on it. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/59 "2009-07-27T18:35:09Z")
> [@G. Odoreida](#): > > Having a special word for something does not make it justifiable. Far be it from me to tell you what you should or shouldn’t be offended by, but if you are going to be offended by the substitution of “English” for “British”, you’re going to be offended a lot, because pretty much everybody I know says “English” in casual conversation when they mean “British”. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/60 "2009-07-27T18:39:52Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Far be it from me to tell you what you should or shouldn’t be offended by, but if you are going to be offended by the substitution of “English” for “British”, you’re going to be offended a lot, because pretty much everybody I know says “English” in casual conversation when they mean “British”. Forgive me, I thought the conventions of GQ were a little tighter than those of casual conversation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060.md?page=4)