# Is Ireland still sorry that Hitler is dead? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060 "2009-07-24T00:00:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/61 "2009-07-27T18:46:21Z")
> [@G. Odoreida](#): > > Forgive me, I thought the conventions of GQ were a little tighter than those of casual conversation. I don’t think so. Besides, synecdoche is an established rhetorical tool. I mean, even people on a low-carb diet say the Lord’s Prayer. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/62 "2009-07-27T18:46:39Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Far be it from me to tell you what you should or shouldn’t be offended by, but if you are going to be offended by the substitution of “English” for “British”, you’re going to be offended a lot, because pretty much everybody I know says “English” in casual conversation when they mean “British”. Good for you. The two should synonymous, just as they always were. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/63 "2009-07-27T19:02:19Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I don’t think so. Besides, synecdoche is an established rhetorical tool. I mean, even people on a low-carb diet say the Lord’s Prayer. wow ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/64 "2009-07-27T19:41:24Z")
> [@G. Odoreida](#): > > No, that is not all you said. As I have just shown, you used “the English” as an active noun when you apparently meant “the UK”, and then you tried to justify it when AK84 pulled you up on it. No, I specifically used that as a deliberate point. Despite the presence as Scots and so on in, yes, the British government, it was and always has been completely dominated by the English, and it was the English ministers and English airmen who were the issue. It may not have been clear, and if so that’s unfortunate and I will try to be clearer in the future. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/65 "2009-07-27T19:55:34Z")
Smiling bandit, since you so freely called me a “fool”, I’ll describe your last post as dishonest, specious and wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/66 "2009-07-27T21:28:57Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Far be it from me to tell you what you should or shouldn’t be offended by, but if you are going to be offended by the substitution of “English” for “British”, you’re going to be offended a lot, because pretty much everybody I know says “English” in casual conversation when they mean “British”. Well, that’s just dandy. “Pretty much everyone **Captain Amazing** knows” is good enough for me! Who cares about actual facts? They are such slippery things. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/67 "2009-07-27T22:05:51Z")
> [@Struan](#): > > Well, that’s just dandy. “Pretty much everyone **Captain Amazing** knows” is good enough for me! Who cares about actual facts? They are such slippery things. What do you want? Evidence that, in the United States, people tend to say “England” when we mean Britain? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/68 "2009-07-27T22:33:55Z")
> [@Struan](#): > > Well, that’s just dandy. “Pretty much everyone **Captain Amazing** knows” is good enough for me! Who cares about actual facts? They are such slippery things. Don’t be offended, **Struan**. You’re dealing with people who, in some cases, couldn’t navigate from England to Ireland if they started in Liverpool harbour, and a little inaccuracy such as conflating “English” and “British” is pretty small beer, even if you and I know the confusion is insulting to the Scotch. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/69 "2009-07-27T22:34:00Z")
> [@G. Odoreida](#): > > You were whooshed by the AK84 post that you quoted. AK84 was using sarcasm to express the irritation many of us feel when “England” is used instead of “the UK”, and to demonstrate how inaccurate the usage is. At risk of putting words in AK84’s mouth, he or she was asking people to say “the UK” when that is the nation-state to which they are referring. “England” was used synonymously for “the UK” up to the mid 20th century, just FYI, so it’s not like there’s no precedent for this usage. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/70 "2009-07-27T23:06:00Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > just FYI Just for me? How lucky I am to have someone provide me with information on incorrect versions of the name of my own country! _In the context of the discussion that has been going on since post no. 19_, what you’re saying is that it’s ok for people to use the wrong term now because **some** people used it 60 years ago or more. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/71 "2009-07-27T23:24:48Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It’s called synecdoche, when you use part of something to refer to the entire thing. Does that mean I can call you a penis? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/72 "2009-07-27T23:32:27Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > What do you want? Evidence that, in the United States, people tend to say “England” when we mean Britain? No, I believe what Struan may be looking for is a reason to see your post as being relevant to this discussion. Poster A: The English government favours policy X. Poster B: There’s no such thing as the “English Government”. It’s called the “UK government”. Poster C: But we call it the “English government”. Therefore we aver that the correct term is the “English government”. Since you like naming rhetorical phenomena, can you confirm for me that Poster C’s statement is called a circular argument? ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/73 "2009-07-28T00:00:50Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Seriously stop being a fool, and read what I wrote for what I actually wrote down. **Moderator caution: (not a formal warning)** Calling someone a name in General Questions is out of bounds. **samclem** Moderator, General Questions. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/74 "2009-07-28T03:31:09Z")
> [@G. Odoreida](#): > > Just for me? How lucky I am to have someone provide me with information on incorrect versions of the name of my own country! > > _In the context of the discussion that has been going on since post no. 19_, what you’re saying is that it’s ok for people to use the wrong term now because **some** people used it 60 years ago or more. Oh settle down. I was just pointing it out, not trying to annoy you personally. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/75 "2009-07-28T04:34:16Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > Does that mean I can call you a penis? Well, it’s not the first time I’ve been called that. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/76 "2009-07-28T15:21:38Z")
Getting back to the question of Ireland’s effect on the Battle of the Atlantic: Having studied this subject in the past, I came to the conclusion that the Republic’s participation in the U-boat war, while it unquestionably would have been helpful and in all likelihood saved lives of merchant mariners, was not vital. In other words, by not participating, Ireland did not nearly bring Great Britain[sup]1[/sup] to its knees nor almost cause the Battle of the Atlantic to be lost, as implied above. Just stating my conclusion, however, is pretty worthless on the Internet, so these are the factors I think matter to the discussion: The best weapon against the U-boats was merchant convoys. Remember that during WWI, the UK was much closer to starvation (and eventual capitulation ) because of the blockade imposed by U-boat attacks. By February, 1917, over one quarter of the merchant ships leaving British harbors was sunk by U-boats. Trans-Atlantic convoys started in April, 1917 and by the next summer, the U-boat squadron in Flanders was losing one boat a week. In WWII, the RN instituted convoys immediately, but lack of escorts limited their success for years. The Treaty Ports referred to above were [Lough Swilly](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lough_Swilly), [Castletownbere (formerly Berehaven)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castletownbere), and [Cobh (formerly Queenstown)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobh). As you can see from these links, these were all closer to the middle Atlantic battlegrounds than any port in the UK. In the Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1921, these were declared sovereign bases for the use of the Royal Navy. In the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement of 1938, these were given back to Ireland, over the protests of a then-backbencher named Winston Churchill. In his post-war memoirs, Churchill did more than any other man to suggest that DeValera’s refusal to allow use of these ports had brought England to the brink of invading Ireland. Churchill’s assertions aside, the Treaty Ports were not decisive to surface escorts in the Battle of the Atlantic. The bases would have affected escort vessels by giving them a refueling base 200 nautical miles or so further from England. The O Class destroyers, the first class of escorts built under the War Emergency Programme specifically to fight an upcoming convoy war, had a range of almost 4000 nautical miles. The “Town Class” of destroyers traded to the RN and RCN by the US in the Destroyers for Bases Agreement had a range of almost 5,000 nmi. The 200 nmi that Lough Swilly would have granted was worth a mere 10 more hours of steaming with a convoy, but the threat distance (measured here as the distance between the North Channel of the Irish Sea and just off Newfoundland) was only about 2,000 nmi. The deadliest, most desperate period of the Battle of the Atlantic, called the “First Happy Time,” was from July, 1940 to October, 1940. This was the time when convoys such as SC-7 and HX-79 were nearly entirely wiped out. During this time, most merchant losses were in escorted convoys. In other words, escorts were not being systematically withdrawn at a certain point due to lack of fuel, allowing U-boats to attack unhindered. The main weaknesses that lead to losses in this time were that there weren’t enough escorts and that the escorts that were available lacked radar. This was the time when the wolfpack tactic was first introduced, which overwhelmed escorts with sheer numbers. Also during this time, U-boats were infiltrating convoys at night on the surface. Sonar did not pick up a surfaced U-boat, especially in the sonic clutter of a large convoy. Once inside the convoy, the U-boat would attack, leaving the escorts completely blinded as to friend or foe. All the fuel in the world would have done nothing to prevent this. The Mid-Atlantic Air Gap was not caused by Ireland’s non-belligerence. RAF Coastal Command never had access to bases in the Republic, true enough, but did have overfly rights. The only RAF base in the Republic prior to WWII was RAF Baldonnel, near Dublin, which was clearly unsuitable for guarding the Western Approaches. As pointed out above, Ireland allowed use of RAF Castle Archdale in Lough Erne, which is actually closer to the battleground than Lough Swilly. Until the arrival of VLR (Very Long Range) Liberators in 1942, the best long-range planes Coastal Command had were Catalina and Sunderland flying boats, making Castle Archdale a perfect location. An RAF Catalina flying boat from this base actually found the _Bismark_ after the Battle of Denmark Strait. The upshot is that Coastal Command had the bases on the eastern side of the Atlantic they wanted. The Gap was eventually closed by Liberators from Gander, Newfoundland. The issue with these planes wasn’t lack of a suitable Irish base, but intra-service wrangling. Bomber Command coveted the Liberators, and had they agreed to released them sooner to Coastal Command, many lives would have been saved. All in all, the argument that Irish non-belligerence was vital or decisive in the Battle of the Atlantic is very weak. * * * [sup]1[/sup]For the balance of this post, please consider all terms such as “Great Britain,” “England,” “the UK,” etc., to refer to the nation formally known as: “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.” Similarly, all references to people, institutions, places, and other objects being “British,” “English,” etc. apply to people, institutions, places, and other objects belonging to, or located in, the nation formally known as: “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.” Any use of such terms is not intended as a slight or insult to any nation, people, or poster to this message board. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/77 "2009-07-28T17:44:23Z")
> [@Pushkin](#): > > Hitler started the war too early, his jet bombers/fighters and longer ranged U-Boats could have wreaked enough havoc to cripple Britain, but didn’t. Huh? Hitler didn’t have any jet bombers or fighters until 1943. Moreover, the first Luftwaffe jet fighter and bomber (Me-262 and Arado Ar-234) were limited to a range of well under 700 miles, so they could only have been used to attack Britain (or British shipping) if Hitler had still controlled France. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/78 "2009-07-28T20:55:01Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Don’t be offended, **Struan**. You’re dealing with people who, in some cases, couldn’t navigate from England to Ireland if they started in Liverpool harbour, and a little inaccuracy such as conflating “English” and “British” is pretty small beer, even if you and I know the confusion is insulting to the Scotch. > > 😛 Hehe. You utter bastard. It took me the second pass to realise what you did there. I was too busy thinking “Yeah, they’d probably try sailing south to get to Ireland”. 😃 _head explodes with nationalist rage_ ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/79 "2009-07-29T08:02:23Z")
> [@Michael\_of\_Lucan](#): > > The fore-runners of the Provisional IRA actively sought funding from Nazi Germany. And from the US, and from Soviet Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060/80 "2009-07-29T10:24:32Z")
> [@Struan](#): > > Hehe. You utter bastard. It took me the second pass to realise what you did there. I was too busy thinking “Yeah, they’d probably try sailing south to get to Ireland”. 😃 > > _head explodes with nationalist rage_ Hehe. I am, aren’t I? _looks fondly at **Struan** , much as Bugs does at Daffy_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ireland-still-sorry-that-hitler-is-dead/504060.md?page=5)