# Is is possible that we're all too biased to figure out what the truth actually is? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2011, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-is-possible-that-were-all-too-biased-to-figure-out-what-the-truth-actually-is/604405 "2011-11-29T02:13:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-is-possible-that-were-all-too-biased-to-figure-out-what-the-truth-actually-is/604405/81 "2011-11-30T20:45:24Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I stated it in my first post. If you do not understand that a planet and its star orbit around a common center of mass then looking for the [wobble in detecting extrasolar planets will not make sense](http://astro.berkeley.edu/~gmarcy/sciam.html). “The Earth orbits the Sun” is a great $999.90 phrase for children who would have trouble with an abstract concept like “barycenter”, but it is not a difficult thing to grasp for adults. “Extrasolar planets” isn’t a very common news item–hell, I consider myself interested in that sort of thing, and using wobble to detect them wasn’t something I’d come across until years after it was being used. As a second point, the phrase “the earth revolves around the sun” for the average educated adult who cares incorporates the idea of a barycenter. > [@](#): > > And Jesus Christ, you created the terms of the analogy, don’t try to argue that it’s actually a microcent or some crazy shit. That’s the kind of stuff that makes philosophy seem like so much garbage. There’s nothing crazy about it! Google tells me that the barycenter of the Earth-Sun system is 0.0003% of the distance between the Earth’s center and the Sun’s center (280 miles out of 93m miles). That’s a tiny, tiny amount to be wrong. And importantly, it’s very tiny relative to “the Sun revolves around the Earth”, which is 100% wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Aeris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Aeris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeris)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-is-possible-that-were-all-too-biased-to-figure-out-what-the-truth-actually-is/604405/82 "2011-11-30T21:09:49Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I’m not really assuming anything. I’m going based on study data, which (in aggregate) seems to indicate that chiropractic care has some small benefit and short-term improvements in the case of chronic spinal and neck pain, and is otherwise no more beneficial than any other treatment or placebo. > > Our personal experiences, in toto, don’t sum up to the same amount of support for a theory as, for example, a survey of studies with 6070 total participants, which showed that “there is no clinically relevant difference between SMT and other interventions for reducing pain and improving function in patients with chronic low-back pain.” > > There are any number of explanations for “why it works for one person” or even several people that don’t involve “the treatment methodology is effective”. Well from what I’m seeing so far in the American Journal of Public Health the trials done were not properly executed and so therefore are subject to criticism. Also, I’m still not understanding how you can say that if a method of treatment is only effective for some than it’s “bullshit”. Chemotherapy isn’t totally effective for everyone either but they still use it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-is-possible-that-were-all-too-biased-to-figure-out-what-the-truth-actually-is/604405/83 "2011-11-30T21:10:15Z")
> [@Aeris](#): > > Are you assuming that all chiropractors are crap except for the one you saw, the one I saw, and the ones everyone in my family has seen? I’m not sure why you think that our personal experience is anomalous. Because the data is not. Chiropractors (and, admittedly, certain more mainstream quasi-medical disciplines) produce the same results as not doing anything at all. As far as the data is concerned, the only beneficial aspect of chiropractic care is that they’ll refer you for diagnostic imaging that will at least determine the scope of your problem. We had a long thread about this a few months ago (in the Pit, I think). ---
**Author:** ![Aeris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Aeris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeris)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-is-possible-that-were-all-too-biased-to-figure-out-what-the-truth-actually-is/604405/84 "2011-11-30T21:50:01Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Because the data is not. Chiropractors (and, admittedly, certain more mainstream quasi-medical disciplines) produce the same results as not doing anything at all. > > As far as the data is concerned, the only beneficial aspect of chiropractic care is that they’ll refer you for diagnostic imaging that will at least determine the scope of your problem. We had a long thread about this a few months ago (in the Pit, I think). I can see how you can claim that it is no _more_ effective than other methods but I don’t see how you can claim that it as effective as sitting on the couch. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-is-possible-that-were-all-too-biased-to-figure-out-what-the-truth-actually-is/604405/85 "2011-11-30T22:03:08Z")
> [@Aeris](#): > > I can see how you can claim that it is no _more_ effective than other methods but I don’t see how you can claim that it as effective as sitting on the couch. :dubious: I dunno, I can imagine bed rest will cure a host of spinal pain problems. > [@Aeris](#): > > Well from what I’m seeing so far in the American Journal of Public Health the trials done were not properly executed and so therefore are subject to criticism. Can you cite an accepted, well-regarded study that shows benefit from chiropractic? One sure sign (to me) of a therapy being potentially bullshit is when it is in widespread use without the benefit of clinical trials proving its efficacy. > [@](#): > > Also, I’m still not understanding how you can say that if a method of treatment is only effective for some than it’s “bullshit”. Chemotherapy isn’t totally effective for everyone either but they still use it. How many is “some”? How does it compare to the placebo effect? That’s the long and the short of it. Chemotherapy is effective at a much greater rate than placebos and other treatments. Chiropractic has not been shown to be so, and has often been shown to be not. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-is-possible-that-were-all-too-biased-to-figure-out-what-the-truth-actually-is/604405/86 "2011-11-30T23:44:15Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > “Extrasolar planets” isn’t a very common news item–hell, I consider myself interested in that sort of thing, and using wobble to detect them wasn’t something I’d come across until years after it was being used. You’re right its not as common as articles about Congress, you got me there. Except I was talking about Cosmology where such news articles are very common. [Here’s a USA Today article abstract from 1994 concerning discovery of extrasolar planets and wobble](http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/USAToday/access/55236243.html?dids=55236243:55236243&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Apr+22%2C+1994&author=Tim+Friend&pub=USA+TODAY+%28pre-1997+Fulltext%29&desc=Three+planets+found+outside+solar+system&pqatl=google). I don’t even know why considerations of your anecdotal experience should be discussed, especially considering what you are saying about anecdotes of chiropractors. > [@Zeriel](#): > > As a second point, the phrase “the earth revolves around the sun” for the average educated adult who cares incorporates the idea of a barycenter. So adults should only be educated on easy to convey information that they care about. Since most adults, in their lifetimes, couldn’t care less about the Earth orbiting the Sun then it doesn’t matter if they think the Sun orbits the Earth. So 100% wrong is no different than 99.999…% wrong. > [@Zeriel](#): > > There’s nothing crazy about it! Google tells me that the barycenter of the Earth-Sun system is 0.0003% of the distance between the Earth’s center and the Sun’s center (280 miles out of 93m miles). That’s a tiny, tiny amount to be wrong. > > And importantly, it’s very tiny relative to “the Sun revolves around the Earth”, which is 100% wrong. So wait, you owed me 93 million and short-changed me $280!!! That’s a Corei7 2600K!!! I want my money dammit! ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-is-possible-that-were-all-too-biased-to-figure-out-what-the-truth-actually-is/604405/87 "2011-12-01T02:40:12Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > You’re right its not as common as articles about Congress, you got me there. Except I was talking about Cosmology where such news articles are very common. Indeed, and if one is interested in cosmology, they should probably be somewhat more educated on it than the average. > [@](#): > > So 100% wrong is no different than 99.999…% wrong. Amazingly, that’s not what I said at all. I said, given a choice between 100% wrong and 0.0003% wrong, it’s asinine to claim there’s no difference whatsoever. > [@](#): > > So wait, you owed me 93 million and short-changed me $280!!! That’s a Corei7 2600K!!! I want my money dammit! In other words, you’re not interested in debating the issue. Thanks for informing me. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-is-possible-that-were-all-too-biased-to-figure-out-what-the-truth-actually-is/604405/88 "2011-12-01T03:55:05Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Indeed, and if one is interested in cosmology, they should probably be somewhat more educated on it than the average…Amazingly, that’s not what I said at all. I said, given a choice between 100% wrong and 0.0003% wrong, it’s asinine to claim there’s no difference whatsoever…In other words, you’re not interested in debating the issue. Thanks for informing me. While I was coming home from work today I remembered this woman I worked with. She performed radioligand binding where it was necessary to use radioactive decay calculations to estimate how much radioactivity you still had after X time in storage. She regularly performed the kinds of calculations that are used to demonstrate the Earth is easily older than the 6000 years or so estimated from the Bible. She was also a Creationist and thought I was silly when discussing evolution. I used to enjoy the irony of her doing the work that proved her view of Earth’s creation so incredibly wrong, but she was nice and hard working so I never really cared. She went on to become a pharmacist and probably does very well in her field. If she can work in a biochemistry laboratory and never make a major screw up in her experiments I don’t see why any facts are important at all unless they directly affect you personally. So common center of mass, orbiting around the Sun, the Universe orbiting the Earth, who really gives a shit. It doesn’t affect me directly so why should I care? Thanks for fighting my ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-is-possible-that-were-all-too-biased-to-figure-out-what-the-truth-actually-is/604405/89 "2011-12-01T05:45:32Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > So common center of mass, orbiting around the Sun, the Universe orbiting the Earth, who really gives a shit. It doesn’t affect me directly so why should I care? Well, that IS the position **you’ve** been arguing all thread. I will reiterate one more time: being closer to right is better than being wrong, even if you are not perfectly informed. Being within a few hundredths of a percent of correct is generally acceptable for day-to-day life, and being completely off is not. Your example of the technician who thought the earth was 6000 years old, she’s wrong. Unacceptably so. Contrariwise, if she thought the universe was 12 billion years old based on facts that were current when she learned it, I can’t be bothered to call her ignorant even if the current data is closer to 15bil or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-is-possible-that-were-all-too-biased-to-figure-out-what-the-truth-actually-is/604405/90 "2011-12-01T06:05:33Z")
Just to harp on SB’s nonsense. If the Earth-Centered view of the cosmos isn’t wrong, what is? It creates a worldview where information is worthless, and all facts are true. Question: Who was the leader of Germany during most of WWII? Answer #1: Adolph Hitler. Answer #2: A sheep. According to SB, they’re both right, because Hitler was a mammal. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-is-possible-that-were-all-too-biased-to-figure-out-what-the-truth-actually-is/604405/91 "2011-12-01T06:52:19Z")
> [@thelabdude](#): > > Doesn’t having the sun orbit the earth have the other planets stopping and backing up? Yes, but it wasn’t that big an issue when people thought they were weightless spheres of light. The Ptolemaic system created a system of epicycles to explain this. It is important to remember that most of the ancient astronomers were a lot smarter than the people who laugh at them today. It would have made a huge difference if someone had invented the telescope in the 2nd century B.C.. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-is-possible-that-were-all-too-biased-to-figure-out-what-the-truth-actually-is/604405/92 "2011-12-01T07:01:55Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Well, that IS the position **you’ve** been arguing all thread. If that’s what you think then obviously there is no effective means of communicating with you. > [@Zeriel](#): > > I will reiterate one more time: being closer to right is better than being wrong, even if you are not perfectly informed. Being within a few hundredths of a percent of correct is generally acceptable for day-to-day life, and being completely off is not. No, now that you have argued effectively that I should accept a little wrong, I see now how it doesn’t matter how wrong a statement is because thinking the Earth is flat with the Universe spinning about it is truly acceptable for day-to-day life. Only hobbyist cosmologists should worry about it. > [@Zeriel](#): > > Your example of the technician who thought the earth was 6000 years old, she’s wrong. Unacceptably so. Contrariwise, if she thought the universe was 12 billion years old based on facts that were current when she learned it, I can’t be bothered to call her ignorant even if the current data is closer to 15bil or whatever. Sure its acceptable because it does not interfere with her day-to-day activities. She has a great job, a wonderful family, and great friends. So it simply does not matter. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85e7bf/32.png) [@Galileo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-is-possible-that-were-all-too-biased-to-figure-out-what-the-truth-actually-is/604405/93 "2011-12-01T14:38:06Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > You come out and attack anyone’s belief, and they clam up, because implicitly you’re attacking them. That’s why a wise rhetor doesn’t do that, but rather argues _around_ the belief. I guess it depends on what you think is “wise”. 😉 It seems that some debaters do come out and attack someone’s belief _because_ they want the other side to clam up. They are not interested in exploring the merits of the other side – they merely want to argue that their side is the only one that is right (or that could even be right) and they want the other side to shut up. The _Mother Jones_ [article](http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2011/03/denial-science-chris-mooney) referenced in the OP addresses some interesting research on the psychology of beliefs but there’s little evidence of the practical applications of that research. I do like this, though: > [@](#): > > you don’t lead with the facts in order to convince. You lead with the values — so as to give the facts a fighting chance. Seems like a good suggestion, if the intention is to convince, and if you know what the relevant values are. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-is-possible-that-were-all-too-biased-to-figure-out-what-the-truth-actually-is/604405/94 "2011-12-01T15:46:36Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > If that’s what you think then obviously there is no effective means of communicating with you. Pot, kettle. As I’d said, it’s clear you are not interested in actually discussing anything, merely playing gotcha games. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-is-possible-that-were-all-too-biased-to-figure-out-what-the-truth-actually-is/604405/95 "2011-12-01T16:35:17Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Pot, kettle. > > As I’d said, it’s clear you are not interested in actually discussing anything, merely playing gotcha games. Seriously, don’t blame me because you don’t like the implications of your own thought process. The reason why you can’t see the interesting implication of what you are saying is because you don’t debate, you just ignore. Your entire argument against mine is to ignore or minimize what I write. I actually do agree with what you are saying, but I extended the logic to where I have to ask myself if I am comfortable with it. Sorry that the interesting implications of your thought process eludes you. “The gotcha” games are thought experiments and the results of those have informed my view of the “truth” and what I came up with is that it doesn’t matter. If you were interested in “debating” you would defend your position to and be able to argue why it is the best. Right now your argument amounts to “Cause it is”. In fact, what I am seeing your position reduced to is little more than an authoritarian command of which facts are important and truthful enough and which ones are not. It’s little more than saying that this is the culture you must follow and no other reason is more important. It’s a dictate without justification. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-is-possible-that-were-all-too-biased-to-figure-out-what-the-truth-actually-is/604405/96 "2011-12-01T16:57:35Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Seriously, don’t blame me because you don’t like the implications of your own thought process. You have demonstrated no understanding of my point. A little wrong and a big wrong are not the same thing. A belief that is a few millionths of a percent off is acceptable in a way that a belief that is 100% wrong is not. You can twist that to mean “any wrong is acceptable”, but it just shows you up as being uninterested in actually discussing the matter. Hence, I’m not wasting my time trying to explain it as long as you keep trying to prove I’ve somehow said that. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85e7bf/32.png) [@Galileo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-is-possible-that-were-all-too-biased-to-figure-out-what-the-truth-actually-is/604405/97 "2011-12-01T17:47:50Z")
You guys are doing a great job of demonstrating the first the sentence in the _Mother Jones_ article: A man with a conviction is a hard man to change. 😉 > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > obviously there is no effective means of communicating with you. > [@Zeriel](#): > > As I’d said, it’s clear you are not interested in actually discussing anything, merely playing gotcha games. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Your entire argument against mine is to ignore or minimize what I write. > [@Zeriel](#): > > it just shows you up as being uninterested in actually discussing the matter. Of course, there’s also this useless comment: > [@](#): > > You guys are doing a great job of demonstrating the first the sentence … [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-is-possible-that-were-all-too-biased-to-figure-out-what-the-truth-actually-is/604405.md?page=4)