# Is 'Islam' losing the culture war? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 15, 2015, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islam-losing-the-culture-war/731348 "2015-09-15T12:23:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2015, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islam-losing-the-culture-war/731348/1 "2015-09-15T12:23:32Z")
I ask this question because I’ve been thinking, for people of a religion to be professing their religious devotion so loudly, to use it as a banner of their identity, for it to be used to justify actions or situations, it says to me that it’s on the losing side, for if it wasn’t it wouldn’t be so fanatical. Is it losing in the face of modernisation, and are we witnessing the last death throes (Which could be for the rest of this century, this won’t be over in 10 years) Of the religion, before it becomes something akin to Christianity in Europe? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2015, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islam-losing-the-culture-war/731348/2 "2015-09-15T12:46:46Z")
You seem to be operating under a very mistaken idea that Islam around the world is a monolithic entity. It’s not. There are quite a number of sects. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2015, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islam-losing-the-culture-war/731348/3 "2015-09-15T12:55:03Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > You seem to be operating under a very mistaken idea that Islam around the world is a monolithic entity. It’s not. There are quite a number of sects. That’s why Islam is in quotation marks in the title. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2015, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islam-losing-the-culture-war/731348/4 "2015-09-15T13:41:12Z")
What is this war of which you speak of? I’ve heard that there is a war between the rich and poor, a war between the man and the woman. And that there is a war between the ones who say there is a war and the ones who say there isn’t. Why don’t you come on back to the war, that’s right, get in it, why don’t you come on back to the war, it’s just beginning. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2015, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islam-losing-the-culture-war/731348/5 "2015-09-15T14:31:31Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > … are we witnessing the last death throes (Which could be for the rest of this century, this won’t be over in 10 years) Of the religion, before it becomes something akin to Christianity in Europe? Perhaps. Christianity is Europe is not representative of all Christianity, and in any case it’s hardly dead. Over here in the world’s largest Christian-majority country the biggest current news story is a woman who refuses to do her job because of her Christian beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islam-losing-the-culture-war/731348/6 "2015-09-15T15:23:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Perhaps. Christianity is Europe is not representative of all Christianity, and in any case it’s hardly dead. Over here in the world’s largest Christian-majority country the biggest current news story is a woman who refuses to do her job because of her Christian beliefs. I agree, but I’m saying that the political power and influence Islam has would be reduced and supplanted by different political ideologies/philosophies ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islam-losing-the-culture-war/731348/7 "2015-09-15T15:43:15Z")
OP, when you said “witnessing the last death throes,” I was reminded of [Cheney’s famous quote.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/19/AR2006061900699.html) Turkey is often used as an example of moderate Islam. How are they doing? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islam-losing-the-culture-war/731348/8 "2015-09-15T15:47:30Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > That’s why Islam is in quotation marks in the title. Oh, so you’re using the term _Islam_ to mean _Whatever you want it to mean at the moment_. That doesn’t make any sense. So…do you actually have a point to debate then, an actual point with a definable group as a point of discussion? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2015, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islam-losing-the-culture-war/731348/9 "2015-09-15T16:11:34Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Oh, so you’re using the term _Islam_ to mean _Whatever you want it to mean at the moment_. That doesn’t make any sense. So…do you actually have a point to debate then, an actual point with a definable group as a point of discussion? Yup, see post #6 > [@](#): > > **marshmallow** > Turkey is often used as an example of moderate Islam. How are they doing? I’d say pretty well, they have actual LBGT marches and Hijabless women, note being, I can’t remember the last time I heard of a Turkish Jihadi, or a Turkish suicide bomber. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2015, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islam-losing-the-culture-war/731348/10 "2015-09-15T16:17:13Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Perhaps. Christianity is Europe is not representative of all Christianity, and in any case it’s hardly dead. Over here in the world’s largest Christian-majority country the biggest current news story is a woman who refuses to do her job because of her Christian beliefs. We have a government that refuses to enforce immigration law because of its political beliefs. 😉 We are supposed to be a nation governed by the rule of law. We should follow the law and change it if we dont like it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2015, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islam-losing-the-culture-war/731348/11 "2015-09-15T16:24:26Z")
The administration has followed the law to exactly the same extent that every other one has since 1965. Selective, policy-based enforcement long predates Obama’s tenure. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2015, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islam-losing-the-culture-war/731348/12 "2015-09-15T16:36:31Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The administration has followed the law to exactly the same extent that every other one has since 1965. Selective, policy-based enforcement long predates Obama’s tenure. Wasnt taking a swipe at Obama for the reasons you mentioned. Just a bit curious at the anger at one woman in Kentucky when ignoring the law has been a bigger issue going back to the 19th-20th centuries in the South. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islam-losing-the-culture-war/731348/13 "2015-09-15T17:18:20Z")
We were angry at those people, too, but the courts were generally on their side so there wasn’t much we could do about it. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2015, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islam-losing-the-culture-war/731348/14 "2015-09-15T21:40:40Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Turkey is often used as an example of moderate Islam. How are they doing? Other examples of moderate Muslim-majority countries are Bangladesh, Indonesia and Malaysia. They just seem to have the usual problems of third-world countries with aspirations to join the first world. ---
**Author:** ![Bert\_Nobbins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@Bert\_Nobbins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bert_Nobbins)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islam-losing-the-culture-war/731348/15 "2015-09-16T18:55:51Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > I’ve heard that there is a war between the rich and poor, a war between the man and the woman. And that there is a war between the ones who say there is a war and the ones who say there isn’t. > > Why don’t you come on back to the war, that’s right, get in it, why don’t you come on back to the war, it’s just beginning. Just in case some of you didn’t recognise that, it is from Mr Leonard Cohen. [http://www.lyricsfreak.com/l/leonard+cohen/there+is+a+war\_20082834.html](http://www.lyricsfreak.com/l/leonard+cohen/there+is+a+war_20082834.html) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islam-losing-the-culture-war/731348/16 "2015-09-16T19:19:31Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I ask this question because I’ve been thinking, for people of a religion to be professing their religious devotion so loudly, to use it as a banner of their identity, for it to be used to justify actions or situations, it says to me that it’s on the losing side, for if it wasn’t it wouldn’t be so fanatical. Is it losing in the face of modernisation, and are we witnessing the last death throes (Which could be for the rest of this century, this won’t be over in 10 years) Of the religion, before it becomes something akin to Christianity in Europe? I don’t know if ‘Islam’ is losing the culture wars, per se, but they certainly aren’t considered one of the cool kids, at least not right now. I think that the perception of ‘Islam’ as a militant extremist religion is pretty pervasive, and I think that it’s a perception that the majority of adherents to the various Islamic sects can and have been fighting against, but even in general the religion is not viewed extremely positively from a global cultural perspective. But then I’d say that Christianity isn’t all that favorably viewed either from a cultural perspective. Frankly, I think that Atheism/Agnosticism is winning the culture wars globally. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islam-losing-the-culture-war/731348/17 "2015-09-16T19:26:15Z")
> [@Bert\_Nobbins](#): > > Just in case some of you didn’t recognise that, it is from Mr Leonard Cohen. > > [http://www.lyricsfreak.com/l/leonard+cohen/there+is+a+war\_20082834.html](http://www.lyricsfreak.com/l/leonard+cohen/there+is+a+war_20082834.html) The Rod McKuen of despair.