# Is Islamic violence the real winner in the Koran-burning incident? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 15, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamic-violence-the-real-winner-in-the-koran-burning-incident/553906 "2010-09-15T23:32:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamic-violence-the-real-winner-in-the-koran-burning-incident/553906/41 "2010-09-16T22:16:44Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Do atheists call for the death of the occasional atheist who embraces religion? This is considered a fate _worse_ than death, so no further punishment is required. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamic-violence-the-real-winner-in-the-koran-burning-incident/553906/42 "2010-09-16T22:29:44Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > I will admit that most of what I find frightening and revolting about the Islamic ideology, its cruelty, its intolerance, its murder of dissenters, its brutal imposition of puritanical morality, its sexism, its homophobia etc. etc. was in fact practised in equivalent forms by western Christian countries in centuries past. Muslims do not burn heretics and witches, but that is just a detail. > > But that admitted, the fact is that Torquemada and Cotton Mather and Matthew Hopkins (the Witchfinder General of England) are long dead and gone. They are not part of a world-wide, rapidly reproducing political reality of 1.5 billion people flooding into our western secular democracies with contempt for our freedoms and tolerance and a determination to bring us all to the “truth” of Islam. > > I realize that there is a sub-caste of educated and prosperous Muslims in the west who are not generally fanatical. On the other hand, do a bit of research about the surprising education levels and prosperous family backgrounds of many Muslim terrorists and would-be terrorists, many of whom were raised in the west. Sub-caste? Now I _really_ want to see the worldwide numbers, flagged for area and standard-of-living. I was under the impression that the _actual_ terrorists were the minority. And as for all those 1.5 billion people, give it a generation or two. They’re not going to be able to get the laws in their new countries changed before growing up in the new country turns all their grandchildren into liberals. Though if you’re seriously worried about the meantime and want to try something nifty like banning **all** religion or something, that might be entertaining enough to get behind. But opposing Islam alone seems to me like a misidentification of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamic-violence-the-real-winner-in-the-koran-burning-incident/553906/43 "2010-09-17T00:05:48Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > > > But how is it that we are to know that those results are purely as a result of idealogy? Even when the reason given is idealogy, we need to take other things into account; poverty levels, national history, natural resources, and so on. Correlation is not causation, and all that. > > Do you suppose a majority of the poor Roman Catholics in Brazilian slums believe people who leave Roman Catholicism should be killed? Probably yes. And the Catholics and other Christians in America believe similarly too I’m sure. It’s not like “I’d rather my child be dead than not believe in God (insert other religious belief as needed)” is an unusual sentiment among the believers. The difference is that unlike, say, Saudi Arabia the religious fanatics aren’t allowed to do as they please. Not as often at least; it still doesn’t keep kids that good American Christians think aren’t Christian enough from being shipped off to camps and beaten, starved and terrified into submission. It doesn’t keep good Christians from catching gays alone and beating them to death, or from murdering doctors who perform abortions. Give American Christians the power to enforce their religion that you see in Islamic theocracies, you’d see atrocities as bad or worse than anything you see in an Islamic theocracy. Nazi Germany comes to mind as an example. The fact that they were a bunch of Christians wearing “God is with us” on their belt buckles sure didn’t keep them from murdering people. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamic-violence-the-real-winner-in-the-koran-burning-incident/553906/44 "2010-09-17T01:20:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Probably yes. And the Catholics and other Christians in America believe similarly too I’m sure. It’s not like “I’d rather my child be dead than not believe in God (insert other religious belief as needed)” is an unusual sentiment among the believers. The difference is that unlike, say, Saudi Arabia the religious fanatics aren’t allowed to do as they please. Not as often at least; it still doesn’t keep kids that good American Christians think aren’t Christian enough from being shipped off to camps and beaten, starved and terrified into submission. It doesn’t keep good Christians from catching gays alone and beating them to death, or from murdering doctors who perform abortions. > > Give American Christians the power to enforce their religion that you see in Islamic theocracies, you’d see atrocities as bad or worse than anything you see in an Islamic theocracy. Nazi Germany comes to mind as an example. The fact that they were a bunch of Christians wearing “God is with us” on their belt buckles sure didn’t keep them from murdering people. Wait till you gice that power to atheists. THAT will make fatwas look like being sent to your room without dessert. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamic-violence-the-real-winner-in-the-koran-burning-incident/553906/45 "2010-09-17T01:30:10Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Wait till you gice that power to atheists. Oh yes, that’s right around the corner in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamic-violence-the-real-winner-in-the-koran-burning-incident/553906/46 "2010-09-17T01:49:32Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Wait till you gice that power to atheists. THAT will make fatwas look like being sent to your room without dessert. Which atheists? Atheists don’t necessarily agree on anything except the nonexistence of gods you know. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamic-violence-the-real-winner-in-the-koran-burning-incident/553906/47 "2010-09-17T06:25:56Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > _Of the U.S._ Scolding the citizens of other countries is not her job. Scolding the citizens of her own country is not her job. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamic-violence-the-real-winner-in-the-koran-burning-incident/553906/48 "2010-09-17T06:29:54Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > What’s your point? Does that there are worse acts mean we cannot castigate those that are merely unpleasant? If we have to go through the list of all the things that are worse than something before we say something is bad, we’re going to be there all day. My point is that the Secretary of State ignored the violence aimed at the United States in favor of castigating a citizen for an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Baboonanza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f475e1/32.png) [@Baboonanza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baboonanza)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamic-violence-the-real-winner-in-the-koran-burning-incident/553906/49 "2010-09-17T09:43:24Z")
For those saying Christianity has moved past violence to homosexuals and other groups I would point you to West Africa. Heavily Christian and some of the most homophobic areas in the world. The problem isn’t the content of Islam at all. The problem is the same one we had in the West: low education, authoritarianism, and the fact that people who live hard lives seem to have a greater willingness to inflict violence upon others. We have moved past it in the West, but only recently and after centuries of brutallity. If you want peace then tolerance, patience and support (you know, Christian values) are what is necessary, plus political moves to reduce authoritarianism. Religous war retoric and a holier than though attitude only makes the problem worse. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamic-violence-the-real-winner-in-the-koran-burning-incident/553906/50 "2010-09-17T10:20:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Marley23](#): > > > > _Of the U.S._ Scolding the citizens of other countries is not her job. > > Scolding the citizens of her own country is not her job. She’s a diplomat and Jones’ proposal inflamed (heh) Muslims around the world. So it relates to her job. Whereas scolding citizens of other countries is essentially undiplomatic by definition. [By the way, here’s what that meanie Hillary said in her clearly pro-burqa remarks:](http://www.myfoxny.com/dpps/news/clinton-condemns-fla.-pastor's-koran-burning-dpgonc-km-20100907_9535942) > [@](#): > > “We sit down together for this meal on a day when the news is carrying reports that a pastor down in Gainesville, Florida plans to burn the holy Koran on September 11th,” she told guests at the Department of State iftar – the evening meal at which Muslims break their fast during Ramadan – where she was joined by Special Representative to Muslim Communities Farah Pandith. > > “I am heartened by clear unequivocal condemnation of this disrespectful, disgraceful act that has come from American religious leaders of all faiths – from evangelical Christians, to Jewish rabbis as well as secular U.S. leaders and opinion makers.” ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamic-violence-the-real-winner-in-the-koran-burning-incident/553906/51 "2010-09-17T10:38:32Z")
As far as I can tell, the “winners” in the Koran-burning incident are those looking for any excuse to rant about Islamic violence. ---
**Author:** ![Baboonanza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f475e1/32.png) [@Baboonanza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baboonanza)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamic-violence-the-real-winner-in-the-koran-burning-incident/553906/52 "2010-09-17T11:17:43Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > As far as I can tell, the “winners” in the Koran-burning incident are those looking for any excuse to rant about Islamic violence. And the media. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamic-violence-the-real-winner-in-the-koran-burning-incident/553906.md?page=2)