# Is Islamism in Egypt really worth worrying about? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 15, 2011, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamism-in-egypt-really-worth-worrying-about/571453 "2011-02-15T15:50:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamism-in-egypt-really-worth-worrying-about/571453/61 "2011-02-15T22:05:06Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > That doesn’t answer the question of whether they are worse or better than similar groups across that region. > > All of us are rightly concerned about the next group taking leadership in Egypt. But it serves no one any good to speculate wildly and inaccurately about the makeup of that group. I simply want to know if the MB, while probably differing extremely from something I’d be comfortable here in the US, would be a moderating voice within that part of the world > > Yes, maybe a lot of their views are medieval, but are they more or less so than other groups in the area? That wasn’t the question posed by Brain. He claimed the RR was worse and that the MB was no worse than Christian Democratic parties in the ME. Also, the question you’re asking doesn’t have an easy answer and I’m not remotely arrogant enough to think I could answer it. > [@](#): > > But within the civilized western world, the US style of extremist Christian fundamentalism is more extreme than a lot of the comparable groups. Is the MB the same way in Egypt? Or are they less so than, for example, Hamas? There are lots of different groups that can be considered example of “Christian fundamentalism” including groups as diverse as the Promise Keepers and the Lambs of Christ. Similarly, there are lots of Islamist groups. Some, such as Turkey’s ruling party aren’t all that extreme, others can be quite scary. It’s hard to definitively nail down where the MB is. As for the idea that they are “less extreme” than Hamas, they would certainly object to such a comparison since Hamas was an off-shoot of them and they’ve been enthusiastic supporters of Hamas since Hamas was founded. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamism-in-egypt-really-worth-worrying-about/571453/62 "2011-02-15T22:16:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Cite? You need examples?:dubious: Ok, take a few people who are generally considered considerable more moderate than the Muslim Brotherhood. A)The late Sheikh Tantawi, former head of Al Azhar, possibly the most widely regarded Sunni Cleric in the Middle East. He has described Jews as “the descendants of apes and pigs”. B)Sayyid Khatami, the reformist President of Iran before he lost to Ahmadinejad. Beloved around the world and regularly compared to Mikhail Gorbachev for his attempts to bridge the gap between Iran and the West. He created a sensation at Harvard when he was asked his opinion of Iran’s laws regarding gays. His response was that gays should be executed. The crowd which had previously been quite receptive greeted this with a very cold silence. C)Ayatollah Ali Al-Sistani. Widely regarded as the most beloved of Shia’s reform-minded Grand Ayatollahs. He also has proclaimed that gay people “must be killed in the worst way possible.” D)Yusuf Al-Qaradawi. Host of a popular religious program on Al Jazeera and probably is a mixture of Robert Warren and Oprah. Lavished with praise by London’s Mayor “Red Ken” when he visited. Amongst other things, he’s argued that it’s wrong to prosecute husbands for raping their wives because husbands can’t rape their wives and he’s also argued that husbands need to be allowed to administer “light beatings” to their wives if those wives are “disloyal.” Now, since you’ve claimed the Muslim Brotherhood is no worse than the Christian Democrats in Europe, please list some Christian Democrat leaders who’ve made such comments. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamism-in-egypt-really-worth-worrying-about/571453/63 "2011-02-15T22:17:57Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > “You see an angry bear in the woods. Do you (a) hoof it in the balls; or (b) appease it by giving it some oral sex”? 😃 “You don’t come here for the hunting, do you?” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamism-in-egypt-really-worth-worrying-about/571453/64 "2011-02-15T22:19:58Z")
> [@C3](#): > > I don’t think gay Ugandans would draw the same distinction you do. Are they living in Egypt (the focus of the thread)? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamism-in-egypt-really-worth-worrying-about/571453/65 "2011-02-15T22:23:58Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > “You don’t come here for the hunting, do you?” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamism-in-egypt-really-worth-worrying-about/571453/66 "2011-02-15T22:26:56Z")
I was wondering what conditions for women would be like for women in Egypt under an Islamic government. Would they be able to vote, or will this next election be “one woman, one vote, one time” for them? (Come to think of it, I do not even know if women in Egypt currently have the vote.) I know that in Islam women are able to run businesses and own property and so forth, but there are also disquieting phenomena from Islamically governed countries, like whenever a woman is raped in a place like Iran or Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, SHE is the one who seems to be punished for it. Would Sharia law turn Egypt into another font of feminist horror stories like the ones we keep getting out of Saudi Arabia, Iran and Pakistan? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamism-in-egypt-really-worth-worrying-about/571453/67 "2011-02-15T22:49:33Z")
Women in Iran can vote and I’ve never heard of any women in Iran being punished for being raped. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamism-in-egypt-really-worth-worrying-about/571453/68 "2011-02-15T23:01:17Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Women in Iran can vote and I’ve never heard of any women in Iran being punished for being raped. Well, there you are. Not all Islamism is equally severe. The center-of-gravity of that in Egypt seems rather more liberal than in Iran. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamism-in-egypt-really-worth-worrying-about/571453/69 "2011-02-15T23:04:33Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > “You see an angry bear in the woods. Do you (a) hoof it in the balls; or (b) appease it by giving it some oral sex”? 😃 “I don’t have to blow faster than the bear, I just have to blow faster than YOU.” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamism-in-egypt-really-worth-worrying-about/571453/70 "2011-02-15T23:10:24Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Women in Iran can vote and I’ve never heard of any women in Iran being punished for being raped. How about being [sentenced to death](http://www.rutherford.org/articles_db/commentary.asp?record_id=392) for defending herself during a rape. does that count? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamism-in-egypt-really-worth-worrying-about/571453/71 "2011-02-15T23:12:08Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, there you are. Not all Islamism is equally severe. The center-of-gravity of that in Egypt seems rather more liberal than in Iran. How is the Muslim Brotherhood “more liberal” than the Iranian government? The Iranian government is considerably less hostile to Jews, to give just one obvious example. To give another the Iranian government pays for gender reassignment surgeries for transgenders. Does the MB support this? ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamism-in-egypt-really-worth-worrying-about/571453/72 "2011-02-15T23:21:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > How about being [sentenced to death](http://www.rutherford.org/articles_db/commentary.asp?record_id=392) for defending herself during a rape. does that count? I thought we were supposed to limit our conversation to Egypt? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamism-in-egypt-really-worth-worrying-about/571453/73 "2011-02-16T00:00:27Z")
Egyptian women gained the vote with the constitution of 1956. Also the right to stand for election. This put them, I believe, slightly ahead of Canadian, Australian and Swiss women. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamism-in-egypt-really-worth-worrying-about/571453/74 "2011-02-16T00:10:31Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Egyptian women gained the vote with the constitution of 1956. Also the right to stand for election. This put them, I believe, slightly ahead of Canadian, Australian and Swiss women. That’s not fair. Egypt had longer to work on it. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamism-in-egypt-really-worth-worrying-about/571453/75 "2011-02-16T00:23:19Z")
[QUOTE=newcomer] So what do smart people do to the “angry bear (with a thorn in it’s paw and having a REALLY bad day)”? [/QUOTE] I’d say if they were smart they would refrain from pissing it off more. > [@](#): > > Suck his balls I presume? Well, that wouldn’t be my first choice, but whatever floats your boat. Personally, I’d say that kicking or attempting to suck an enraged bears balls is likely to get you turned into bear-chow, but you do what you think you have too. [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] What response could Israel take to the rocket attacks from Gaza, that would be most injurious to the cause of the parties launching them? [/QUOTE] Like I said, guts used as grease for tank treads, lamentation of their women…that sort of stuff. They could basically let the army off the leash…that probably wouldn’t be a great thing for the parties launching the stupid fucking attacks. Wouldn’t be particularly good for the citizens who were caught in the middle either. Wouldn’t be very good for the Israeli’s either. Sounds like a lose/lose sort of thing. > [@](#): > > I am trying to present the question for debate. I actually have no opinion as to the answer (though I suppose I could name any number of things Israel might do that wouldn’t hurt the cause). Could you be a bit more clear? What exactly are you getting at and what do you want answered? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamism-in-egypt-really-worth-worrying-about/571453/76 "2011-02-16T00:43:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > How about being [sentenced to death](http://www.rutherford.org/articles_db/commentary.asp?record_id=392) for defending herself during a rape. does that count? That was a horrific story, but no a woman being convicted of murder on the grounds that she suposedly used excessive force in defending herself, while appalling is not as bad as convicting a rape victim of adultery as Saudi Arabia has done. Furthermore, at least in that case the lower court’s decision was reversed by the higher court. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamism-in-egypt-really-worth-worrying-about/571453/77 "2011-02-16T01:42:29Z")
> [@C3](#): > > I thought we were supposed to limit our conversation to Egypt? 😉 My original post was. I was responding to a statement about Iran. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamism-in-egypt-really-worth-worrying-about/571453/78 "2011-02-16T02:40:20Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > That was a horrific story, but no a woman being convicted of murder on the grounds that she suposedly used excessive force in defending herself, while appalling is not as bad as convicting a rape victim of adultery as Saudi Arabia has done. > > Furthermore, at least in that case the lower court’s decision was reversed by the higher court. And that was a great outcome but it doesn’t address the level of misogyny in such laws. The age eligibility for a death sentence in Iran is 15 years for males, and 9 for females. We’re drifting a bit from the original op which is a focus of Islamic influence in Egypt absent President Mubarak. Iran’s Supreme Leader saw the Egyptian protest as an Islamic awakening in the region. Whether the Islamic Brotherhood has a positive or negative influence has yet to be determined. I suppose the next test of regional violence would be the upcoming Christian Easter holiday. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamism-in-egypt-really-worth-worrying-about/571453/79 "2011-02-18T14:40:05Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > To give another the Iranian government pays for gender reassignment surgeries for transgenders. From what I understand that’s used by gay Iranians as a way of getting themselves out of being executed, it’s not a policy grounded in liberal acceptance of the rights of the LGBT community. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamism-in-egypt-really-worth-worrying-about/571453/80 "2011-02-18T15:09:56Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > From what I understand that’s used by gay Iranians as a way of getting themselves out of being executed, it’s not a policy grounded in liberal acceptance of the rights of the LGBT community. I think it’s more that the government just views transgendered people differently than gays and lesbians. They see transgendered people as ill and curable (by sex reassignment surgery), and see gays and lesbians as sinners and criminals. There’s no real reason that a group that tolerates transgendered people has to tolerate gays and lesbians or vice versa. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamism-in-egypt-really-worth-worrying-about/571453.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islamism-in-egypt-really-worth-worrying-about/571453.md?page=5)