Is Islamism in Egypt really worth worrying about?

Great Debates
21

Ok. Let’s assume that your characterization here is correct, and that the MB is like the ‘American religious-right’ (only more enlightened and all that other bullshit). How would you feel about things if the RR got major political power in the US? Would this be a good thing or a bad one, from your perspective?

Ah, so they aren’t really like the US religious right, but more like the center right Christian Democrats in Europe. Got it. How would you feel about the ‘center-right Christian Democrat parties’ gaining control of several European countries? Would this be a good thing or a bad on, from your perspective?

The big deal is that no one knows how it would pan out. On the one hand, you are talking about an Islamic theocracy gaining power in a country that sits in a very volatile area, and one that the US has and needs strategic partnership with, if for no other reason than to keep a lid on more conflict between Israel and it’s neighbors. On the other hand, the MB SEEMS to be fairly moderate for a theocratic Muslim organization, so perhaps it might all work out well in the end. You are making tons of assumptions based, as far as I can tell on wishful thinking and your own preconceptions, and you are doing so where more knowledgeable experts of the region fear to tread.

Good grief. Again, you are pulling assumptions out of your ass here and presenting them as if they were hard facts. If the MB wins a majority, it might or might not be ‘skin off Israel’s nose’…depending on what they do once they are in power. If they continue to work with Israel for peace, then all is good, even if they don’t maintain close relations with the US. If they decide not to go that route, then the potential would be there for future conflict with Israel…after all, it’s not like there hasn’t been a history of conflict between Egypt and Israel, or like Egyptians are universally happy about the peace between Egypt and Israel.

And if Egypt goes to a fully open borders policy with Gaza then the seeds of future conflict with Israel will be sown. YOU might think that’s a good thing, but that won’t be a universal sentiment.

-XT

22

Is that not the crux of your concern with Egypt?

I’m pretty sure those seeds have been in the ground a long time now.

23

Dunno, it would be nice if some conversations did not get so detoured.

I’d suggest that Alessan’s Gov is rather more worried about an American trained and equipped Egyptian army than Gaza.

24

[QUOTE=spark240]
I’m pretty sure those seeds have been in the ground a long time now.
[/QUOTE]

To continue with the agricultural theme, the ground they have been in for the past decade or so hasn’t been particularly fertile, so they haven’t grown out of control. If the ground they are in becomes more fertile, then that would probably be a bad thing for Egypt, Israel and perhaps the region. The crux of what the OP is seemingly asserting is that anyone worrying about this stuff is pissing up a rope, since it won’t happen. That’s an assumption the OP seems to be making based on his own wishful thinking and preconceptions. It might work out that way (I sure HOPE it does), but then again, having an Islamic theocracy in charge might just provide that fertile ground for all those seeds to sprout…

-XT

25

Yes, and the crux–the almost literal hinge between Israel and Egypt–is Gaza. If Gaza was part of a normal country of Palestine, things would be different, wouldn’t they?

26

No, you’re wrong, it was a serious question: If you were one of the rocket-launchers in Gaza, how would you least want the Israeli government to respond to your attacks?

27

Maybe. Maybe not.

28

What else are Israelis thinking of when they think of Israeli-Egyptian relations these days?

29

Kill all my family? Go all Keyser Soze on everyone I know?

Hey, you asked.

30

I know for a fact that the Eilat Division has been holding urgent meetings on the subject of logistics.

31

Bloody hell, it’s not that hard to think of: there are a whole huge range of scenarios, like the Egyptian army has an internal coup and the younger generation want to make themselves war heroes…

I personally think the present Israeli government is a bunch of idiots who’ve scored multiple unforced own-goals, but that doesn’t make Israel worry about that kind of scenario unreasoned. Were I there, I’d think about it. I mena just in reading the UK press the past two weeks (and the UK press is notably less Israel-centric than the US in my opinion), this has come up.

32

Heck, the Americans should flood the country with Blackberry knockoffs with unlimited internet access. Then the MB will invariably find itself outnumbered 500 to 1 by fans of Gossip Girl, Justin Bieber, MANswers, what have you. If they try to impose some kind of Islamic state with attendant restrictions, there will be 30 million people eager to tell them to go fuck themselves.

33

:rolleyes: Like I said, I meant, in terms of the good of the cause.

34

You tell me.

35

It is not. And I’m not even sure about the “peaceful” part anymore. For decades, the US religious right has been getting more and more extreme. Listen to their rhetoric and watch their leaders bray about using 2nd Amendment solutions and targeting those who defeat them in elections. Plus, the US religious right has always been about trying to get their religious influences into government to make this a theocracy. All social issues including abortion, sex, gay marriage, and creationism is their attempt to force everyone to adhere to their religious values.

36

Do you actually know any people who personally identify as part of the religious right? I do. None of them talk about wanting to get all the Jews into Israel to start the Rapture, or to kill them all, or anything. They do respect Israel, but it’s only partly for religious reasons, and even in that case, it’s more out of being against Islam. The main reason they seem to respect Israel is because the country was able to put together a military (out of the ashes of the Holocaust) which consistently beat back much larger and stronger enemies, and that inspires respect in people - especially people who once served in the military, as many of the conservative right-wing has.

37

For a lot of people that is the precise reason to worry.

Israeli worries are based in fact and perceptions of their experiences and go beyond the name. I was specifying what I know of these reasons in that post.

38

I’m sorry, but such a statement shows real fundamental misunderstanding of Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhood.

The Muslim Brotherhood is composed of Sunnis and Sunnis don’t have Ayatollahs. Ayatollahs are a relatively recent creation of the Shia, and are more akin to Cardinals. In fact, there development was largely inspired, though the Shia don’t like to admit it, by contact with Christians.

Essentially saying of the Muslim Brotherhood, “these are not your Ayatollah’s Islamists” is like saying of the promise keepers, “these are not your Pope’s Evangelicals.”

It also falsely suggests that the Muslim Brotherhood is less radical than most Shia Ayatollahs, when that is by no means necessarily the case.

Anyone who thinks that the followers of Sayyid Qutb are going to be less radical and more quietist than the followers of the Ayatollah Sistani doesn’t know a lot about either man or their followers.

Hmm… I’m not aware of any prominent members of the religious right in the US who’ve called for laws in the US criminalizing Protestants converting to Mormonism, Judaism, Catholicism or Islam. By contrast, not only has the Muslim Brotherhood called for apostates to be executed, but under pressure for them, the Mubarak government required all Muslims who converted to Christianity to have the word “Ex-Muslim” stamped on their IDs, even when the people involved were Christians who’d converted to Islam to marry and then following a divorce, chose to go back to their original faith.

As you can imagine, having something like that on your ID when trying to get a job, housing, or education can be a bit difficult even when one is lucky enough to avoid getting locked up in prison for “insulting Islam” or some similar charge.

As for gays, the Mubarak government has been engaging in periodically rounding up and arresting large numbers of gays, jailing them on the grounds that they violated public indecency laws and as far as the Brotherhood is concerned, this is far too little.

If they got their way, while Egypt might or might not start executing gays, things would become much, much worse for them in Egypt if the Brotherhood gains control.

By contrast, the religious right in America seems more concerned with trying to block gay marriage and get DADT reinstated and isn’t pushing for laws criminalizing being gay to be reinstated and enforced, much less enforced as harshly as the Brotherhood wants.

Also, Egyptian Christians certainly wouldn’t want the Brotherhood in power. As it is, Christians in Egypt make up about 10% of the population and face considerable amounts of soft discrimination where quotas in universities and the government restrict them when it comes to job growth and large numbers of poor Christians are confined to their own versions of ghettos.

The Brotherhood meanwhile, on it’s website claims that Muslims make up 97% of the population(a blatant lie) which tells you all you need to know about how they feel about Egypt’s Christians. They may not want their Christians murdered, but that doesn’t mean life for Christians wouldn’t get worse if the Brotherhood comes to power.

Now, since you consider the Brotherhood to not only bet better than the RR in the US, but comparable to Christian Democratic parties in Europe, please link me to calls by European Christian Democrats to lock up people for being gay, stone women who commit adultery, and who advocate executing Christians who convert to Islam.

39

Look, Keyser Soze is a myth, a bedtime story Palestinian parents tell their children: “Be good, or Keyser Soze will get you!” He isn’t real.

40

Ibn, are the MB considered to be equally radical, more radical, or less so than similar groups across that area of the world?

Because if what you say is true, and it may be, I don’t know, that is a very scary description. However, that doesn’t invalidate what Brain said either because his assertion is that the MB is not as bad as the others.

I can say that the MB is like the US religious groups, just more extreme. Isn’t it worth having the MB in charge if they are less bad than the rest of them? If they can at least have peace or is neutral with Israel, that’s good enough for me. If they allow people to smuggle in items across the border, well, that’s not ideal, but better than arming the insurgents themselves like Iran does. If that’s true, I can live with the MB